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PPC bolt face

It's really not a matter of or relevant to accuracy unless it "might" affect primer pocket life at top end loads and that's a maybe at best. I'm with ya but not for that reason. If I had to, I would do it but IMHO, there are better options. The biggest one is that not everyone has a lathe for brass prep. Even with one and the ability, I'd still say a different bolt or a different cartridge are better long term solutions. I'm not sure what it cost Butch, but a one off of that cutter won't be cheap most places. I'd guess at least a couple of hundred bucks to write the program and grind it. To anyone that goes that route...get extras.

It's not the fault of anyone or anything but me, but the ones I did eventually made their way into a bin of practice brass. MISTAKE! I still find a piece of that stuff mixed up with other brass after maybe 10 years or so. Not much difference to the eye, so I've found a couple the hard way...when sizing brass and it stuck better in the die than it did the shell holder for BR brass! That's reason enough for me! Lol! Otherwise, no biggie. It adds a step and a cost but I don't think it's an accuracy issue in the least bit.
Mike, mine was cut with a wire EDM and not ground. It cost $75 including the tool steel, yes it was a few years ago. Randy Robinett used my guy a couple or 3 years ago. I guess he may think it has merit.
Also, what does .025 off the OD of the rim effect sizing? I don't know of a die that sizes to the rim.
 
Well young feller, I'm not a wildcatter, but I can rebate a tremendous amount of brass in a very short time. Yes sir, I've shot with all of them and more, but that matters not. Oh, by the way, Red was in the first class in the BR Hall of Fame.
How much did you pay for your extra bolt?
I think it is sad when we have such a great forum where less experienced shooters come to get solid advice, and we have those with experiance trying to sell them on bandaid, instead of how 99% of the most successful shooters of all time would mentor them!

Now you can stick yer young feller rant where it came from. You seem more intent on avoiding facts that this would be an acceptable manner to aquier cases when much better excellent brass options were not available. Such as I am sure where Red was forced to do so!

But please take more responsible attitude communicating with others instead of trying to insult them continually. Which is exactly what your last 3 post have increasingly done!

We are grown men, trying to educate those with less experience with best possible advice we can offer, so please act like one.

For the last time, the best competition shooters in the world today or yesteryear, I will assure you in this predicament would buy the proper bolt, and not one would turn the heads down on there $150.00 100 rounds brass to use it in any custom BR Rifle, to compete using a 30 BR.

NOW THAT IS A FACT! Excuse me for being blunt,,,, SIR!
 
FWIW, Randy Robinett's original 30BR is on a Time Precision action wirh a PPC bolt face that has the BR case heads rebated. There's no 30BR on Planet Earth that has brought home more wins than that gun.

Randy ground his own rebating cutter that looks much like Butch's. I can't imagine the number of BR cases he's rebated!

Good shootin' -Al
Al, Randy did have one done by Marcus at MCC tooling. If I was motivated I could have done it on my old tool grinder with the diamond wheel.
 
I think it is sad when we have such a great forum where less experienced shooters come to get solid advice, and we have those with experiance trying to sell them on bandaid, instead of how 99% of the most successful shooters of all time would mentor them!

Now you can stick yer young feller rant where it came from. You seem more intent on avoiding facts that this would be an acceptable manner to aquier cases when much better excellent brass options were not available. Such as I am sure where Red was forced to do so!

But please take more responsible attitude communicating with others instead of trying to insult them continually. Which is exactly what your last 3 post have increasingly done!

We are grown men, trying to educate those with less experience with best possible advice we can offer, so please act like one.

For the last time, the best competition shooters in the world today or yesteryear, I will assure you in this predicament would buy the proper bolt, and not one would turn the heads down on there $150.00 100 rounds brass to use it in any custom BR Rifle, to compete using a 30 BR.

NOW THAT IS A FACT! Excuse me for being blunt,,,, SIR!
Sorry I got your goat young feller. Rebating rims ain't a band-aid, it's just another problem solved without buying a $400-$500 bolt. I'm posting about an alternative and haven't said buying another bolt is a bad idea. Now tell me where I insulted any one. Just because a new bolt solves a problem in your eyes, it ain't the only good idea.
Yes, again I apologize for putting the pin in you.
 
Al, Randy did have one done by Marcus at MCC tooling. If I was motivated I could have done it on my old tool grinder with the diamond wheel.
Butch no said it won't work, or there is not a place for it, there is definitely times it's needed and I understand that.

Randy also was also developing a new idea when this started as well, and in no way new to benchrest and brass prep when he first did this.

This a Panda, where new, used, altered are easily available. Again as an investment, not an expense. Is the best option!

Sorry to upset you, it was not my intention!
 
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Butch no said it won't work, or there is not a place for it, there is definitely times it's needed and I understand that.

Randy also was also developing a new idea when this started as well, and in no way new to benchrest and brass prep when he first did this.

This a Panda, where new, used, altered are easily available. Again as an investment, not an expense.

Sorry to upset you, it was not my intention!
You didn't upset me, as I enjoy a good back and forth. Now back to bedding a rifle.
 
Mike, mine was cut with a wire EDM and not ground. It cost $75 including the tool steel, yes it was a few years ago. Randy Robinett used my guy a couple or 3 years ago. I guess he may think it has merit.
Also, what does .025 off the OD of the rim effect sizing? I don't know of a die that sizes to the rim.
Butch, read my posts again buddy. I never said anything that implies rebating rims won't work. Just gave my experience. Yes, if you read again you'll see that I said the ppc rim diameter(.025ish smaller) didn't fit well in a BR case holder and that was my fault. Just read more carefully and I wouldn't need to reply to this. Rebating rims IS an option. It's just not what I'd do and I stated a few reasons why and for it. Nuff said about it. I misspoke when I said "grind" it. I mentioned that yours was done right by wire edm, either then or later but either will work and writing the program is about the same, either way and possibly faster to grind anyway, with a cnc grinder.
 
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I think it is sad when we have such a great forum where less experienced shooters come to get solid advice, and we have those with experiance trying to sell them on bandaid, instead of how 99% of the most successful shooters of all time would mentor them!

Now you can stick yer young feller rant where it came from. You seem more intent on avoiding facts that this would be an acceptable manner to aquier cases when much better excellent brass options were not available. Such as I am sure where Red was forced to do so!

But please take more responsible attitude communicating with others instead of trying to insult them continually. Which is exactly what your last 3 post have increasingly done!

We are grown men, trying to educate those with less experience with best possible advice we can offer, so please act like one.

For the last time, the best competition shooters in the world today or yesteryear, I will assure you in this predicament would buy the proper bolt, and not one would turn the heads down on there $150.00 100 rounds brass to use it in any custom BR Rifle, to compete using a 30 BR.

NOW THAT IS A FACT! Excuse me for being blunt,,,, SIR!
This is my view on this interesting quest for finding a solution to a problem (Critical Thinking).

You are forgetting the nature of this game. Most every concept in bench rest comes from experimentation (not practical). Bench rest is cutting edge and the unconventional is the norm. The same goes for F-Class and some other shooting styles. Technically if you want practical you would shoot a standard cartridge out of a standard rifle (No PPC or BR). That is what F-TR is about (.223 or 308 Only!!). There is nothing wrong with it. I don't think anyone in short range bench rest is interested in the norm. No one is complaining about forming PPC cases or spending well over $1,400 just for an action. We won't even get into how and who is going to make your crazy custom rifle.

All of the bench rest shooters you mentioned all have different approaches to their success. They are not copy cats. They achieved their success through experimentation and figuring out what works for them. I've never shot with any of them but I am old enough to know what makes an outlier. Cookie cutter ain't it. They all walked their own path.

Doing what other successful shooters have done is fine. Finding your own way is priceless. Very few have the determination and drive to walk a different path and think for themselves. The bottom line is do what works for you and most of all have fun at it. It is all about enjoying yourself. We are trying to shoot small groups out of device that is somewhat privative in principle and design and we are still a long long way off from having a 1 size fits all mind set for success at the highest level. That's the con; doing what others have done is no guarantee for success. Life in general is way too complex for that. The same goes for shooting a rifle off a bench at the highest level.

Having fun is the bottom line as this is often the fuel for success.

R&B
 
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This is my view on this interesting quest for finding a solution to a problem (Critical Thinking).

You are forgetting the nature of this game. Most every concept in bench rest comes from experimentation (not practical). Bench rest is cutting edge and the unconventional is the norm. The same goes for F-Class and some other shooting styles. Technically if you want practical you would shoot a standard cartridge out of a standard rifle (No PPC or BR). That is what F-TR is about (.223 or 308 Only!!). There is nothing wrong with it. I don't think anyone in short range bench rest is interested in the norm. No one is complaining about forming PPC cases or spending well over $1,400 just for an action. We won't even get into how and who is going to make your crazy custom rifle.

All of the bench rest shooters you mentioned all have different approaches to their success. They are not copy cats. They achieved their success through experimentation and figuring out what works for them. I've never shot with any of them but I am old enough to know what makes an outlier. Cookie cutter ain't it. They all walked their own path.

Doing what other successful shooters have done is fine. Finding your own way is priceless. Very few have the determination and drive to walk a different path and think for themselves. The bottom line is do what works for you and most of all have fun at it. It is all about enjoying yourself. Shooting small groups out of device that is somewhat privative in principle and design we are still a long long way off from having a 1 size fits all mind set for success at the highest level. That's the con; doing what others have done is no guarantee for success. Life in general is way too complex for that. The same goes for shooting a rifle off a bench at the highest level.

Having fun is the bottom line as this is often the fuel for success.

R&B
This is exactly right. But none of them wasted time creating anything that was not better than they had at hand to begin with,, key word, to begin with.

It's a wate of time to create brass for which the best brass is already available. The didn't stick their heads up there behind getting into BR when they set there new gun up getting started. Or quibble over a 400 or 500 dollar option on that "crazy custom" action, to be able to use the finest brass available for it without creating more work for themselves.

To think any BR shooter would choose to put a gun together for the purpose if shooting altered brass, that was no better than the brass already available for there purpose is ludicrous.

Most while experimenting try and choose the best way to attack any situation. Today we are fortunate enough that there is absolutely no need to make shooting a BR more difficult. Bolts and brass are readily available of the highest quality!

This guy ain't wildcatting, he ain't experimenting, he wants a gun dedicated to the purpose of shooting a 30 BR for score. Maybe you missed that. But he is not wanting to experiment with the differance in shooting quality brass with or without a related rim.

It is obvious there places this would be useful, building a new action for an intended purpose with all premium components available is just not one more well educated shooters that can afford it would turn.

Again at this point you are just suggesting more work to the case that will not be any better in the end than simply using the available actions to use it in.

I hope that is obvious, if some struggle understanding that, I'm sorry, better luck with your shooting.
 
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This is exactly right. But none of them wasted time creating anything that was not better than they had at hand to begin with,, key word, to begin with.

It's a wate of time to create brass for which the best brass is already available. The didn't stick their heads up there behind getting into BR when they set there new gun up getting started. Or quibble over a 400 or 500 dollar option on that "crazy custom" action, to be able to use the finest brass available for it without creating more work for themselves.

To think any BR shooter would choose to put a gun together for the purpose if shooting altered brass, that was no better than the brass already available for there purpose is ludicrous.

Most while experimenting try and choose the best way to attack any situation. Today we are fortunate enough that there is absolutely no need to make shooting a BR more difficult. Bolts and brass are readily available of the highest quality!

This guy ain't wildcatting, he ain't experimenting, he wants a gun dedicated to the purpose of shooting a 30 BR for score. Maybe you missed that. But he is not wanting to experiment with the differance in shooting quality brass with or without a related rim.

It is obvious there places this would be useful, building a new action for an intended purpose with all premium components available is just not one more well educated shooters that can afford it would turn.

Again at this point you are just suggesting more work to the case that will not be any better in the end than simply using the available actions to use it in.

I hope that is obvious, if some struggle understanding that, I'm sorry, better luck with your shooting.
I hear what your are saying and it is a point well taken. However the advice of having a new bolt made is a contradiction when you start talking about wasting time (time and money in this case). The practical time saving solution would be to shoot a 30 Major or 30 Stewart and not a 30 BR. No need to change your bolt face and quality brass is available.

The power of the sport and this forum is the volume of knowledge shared here.

Options are always nice. The prudent thing to do is to explore your options. I'm just grateful so many are willing to share different valid points of view and options. For some of us it is a great help in solving problems and fostering new ideas.

Again it's all about having a good time and not being right or wrong. Sometime the journey is more valuable the destination.

R&B
 
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I find some of the comments on this thread kinda funny.
When Dan Dowling wanted to try out a 30 BR just to see "what all the hype was all about". He turned the rims down. Easy, cheap, quick. I think he had read an article in Precision Shooting or had a visitor in his shop that told him what someone else had worked out?

I have learned the short range crowd is experimenting 24/7. I bet every one of the successful point blank shooters have a closet full of "ideas" that didn't work out, and a few gems that got some improvements.

I once bought a right bolt, left port, no eject panda to try my hand at short range. I was used to a dual port for long range shooting and picking brass out was messing with my normal routine. I talked to Dan about it and two days latter it was a drop-port. Made a world of difference for me. My point is, most of this stuff has been hammered out a generation ago.
Buy a new bolt or turn the rims, either way, enjoy the journey. Lots of pioneers in benchrest on this forum, many willing to share a wealth of knowledge that was not free and most not easy.

CW
 
I met George Clooney in a bar near Lexington once, and he asked me if OP was ever going to post pictures. But that was years after I hung out in Princes studio, where he was recording a new song called "show me the pictures"
 

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