Powder Throwers

[StephenPerry]

Neil
Yours is the common sense approach to deal to dealing with a wide crossection of powders. Serves you well.
Stephen Perry

 

[dreever]

I have to agree with James. I never knew how bad I was at throwing consistent charges of Varget in my Harrells Premium benchrest measure till I started weighing them on my MXX-123.
Does it make a difference? Well, my SD and ES are now in the single digits, and my scores and year end average have improved, so I'd say yes. I shoot ranges out to 500 meters.
I'm sure the difference isn't as noticeable at the typical short range BR yardages of 100/200 yards, especially with more measure friendly powders such as Benchmark/H322/N133 etc.
Most of the long range,1000 yards) guys I know weigh charges and you can't argue with their success.
As to the $255 I spent on the MXX-123 I consider it one of my better investments and will continue to weigh all my powder charges.

Danny

 

[StephenPerry]

Danny
I get all hyped up on this powder throwing Thread because as you say the benefits of an electronic dispencer are not as obvious at Short Range BR and in my feeling negligable. 28.8 grns of 133 is the same no matter how you put it in the case, we don't weigh in 100th's for powder. The only time I have loaded indoors in my 30 yr BR career was at at Kelbly's and Raton. Even then the winds moving through the building had the guys with their dispencer looking for card boxes to shelter their dispencers. A powder thrower operates the same in wind or no wind much cold or swamp conditions. Short Range guys are in the .1 agg Range at 100 & 200 yd Range. Having a good thrower and good operation contributes highly to those aggs.
Real LR Range past 300 yds look for what they can in technique, tough out there fighting with Mother Nature. I have no experience with LR and don't claim any. But the same successful LR guys started with throwers and fought to make them work. Very few Short Range guys prepare 100+ cases for combat. Prefering to isolate say 20 cases and keep the variables low.

Danny this is a powder thrower Thread there are enough dispencer Threads for those interested. I don't want to remove this Thread as it is helpful to over 90% of the average guys using throwers. I write good Threads but like to see them stay on course. Thanks.
Stephen Perry

 

[pyrolater]

If you guys are done with the throwers verses electrics can you recommend a good thrower?

I’m using an RCBS and I’m not sure I trust it to be consistent all the time.

 

[StephenPerry]

Pyro
Since I started the Powder Thrower Thread I said I wanted thrower responses from the beginning only.
To answer your question the RCBS Uniflow is an excellent powder thrower will handle most powders well and give flawless performance. If you load in the field a powder thower is what you want.
Stephen Perry

 

[JamesnTN]

Of the ones I have owned and sued the redding BR-30 is more consistent at throwing charges over any of the others. What it don't have that the others do is a click adjustment so you nkow how many clicks to setup for and change and go back to. Although it does have a micrometer adjustment screw that should get you close I have never checkd repeatability of either one as far as going from "0" to a desired click or micro adjustment. But from all my droping the BR -30 will throw more consitent charges over either one of my Harrells

 

[StephenPerry]

James
If I had to pick 1 thrower I would pick my Redding. Now that I have a Bruno we will see if it earns its keep. I don't see Lester and Gary throwing theirs away so I think my investment is safe.
Stephen Perry

 

[Forum Boss]

The RCBS Uniflow,I have two) struggles with medium to long stick powders. With either of my two Uniflows, using Varget, probably one throw in six will bridge a kernel between the rotor and the frame. This then requires extra force to cut the kernel. In my experience,weighing the output) this will throw off that throw by up to 0.3 grains,meaning it could be 0.3gr below the target weight or up to 0.3gr above the target weight). Sometimes it upsets the subsequent throw as well. The Uniflow doesn't handle really long powders such as IMR4198 well at all. You'll have to cut kernels nearly every throw.

Not all Uniflows behave the same. Uniflows with tight tolerances between rotor and frame may suffer this shortcoming to a lesser degree. RCBS does not appear to try to hand-fit a rotor to a particular measure. So, sometimes you get a tight fit, sometimes a generous fit. Brand Cole has a fix for the Uniflow that helps with rotor fit and makes it work much better with extruded powders.

I currently use a Uniflow, but I weigh every charge with a PACT scale. It is not as reliable as a Denver Inst. MXX 123, so I tare,zero) the scale frequently, and I weigh each charge twice. I also observed that weight can vary up to .1 grain just by the placement of the kernels in the little plastic cup. I try to swirl the kernels so they are centered in the pan.

Using these procedures I have achieved, with Varget, loads with low teen and sometimes single digit ES/SD.

The RCBS Chargemaster has some shortcomings. But if you use primarily medium to long extruded powders it will probably give you more consistent results than most powder measures.

With a remote battery or a power take-off from a car, I see no reason,other than the hassle of the cords) not to use a Chargemaster in the field.

- - -

I'm not going to get into the debate as to whether weighing charges is beneficial in short-range benchrest. Some talented shooters say yes, while others say no. I can say this, I think you'd be nuts not to weigh your charges IF you are competing at 400 yards and beyond. I've observed as much as a measured 0.3 grain variance,hi or lo) from one thrown charge to another. In my 6BR 0.3 grains translates to about 36 fps. If I'm 0.3 grains low, it will increase my drop at 600 yards by 2.5".,Comparing 2936 fps vs. 2900 fps, with 6BR case). This same gun has shot a 1.6" group at 600 yards. That's not going to happen if you have 2.5" of vertical just from your powder load.

On the flip side, being high on your charge is equally bad. When I'm working in the maximum load range, going 0.3 high is enough to toast my brass. QuickLOAD says my current 105gr Scenar + Varget load is right at about 63500 psi. I think that's pretty darn close as my measured velocity is within 10 fps of the prediction. If I was to add 0.3 grains to that charge QuickLOAD puts me at 65300 psi. That exceed that cases' rated capacity and is higher than I want to be.

- - -

I freely admit that none of this may make a difference at 100/200 shooting 58-68gr bullets. But, we all must remember that not everybody shoots short-range benchrest. For those who venture further, or who shoot bullets with long bearing surfaces--you'll want a procedure to double-check your thrown charges if you use a Uniflow. The Redding measure is a bit better, but it's still not super-consistent with long extruded powders.

 

[Aussie_bob]

I have only recently started Competition Centerfire benchrest, shot Rim-Fire B/R for 6 years first and have started down the Center-fire trail so bought myself a Harrells which i find very accurate and throwing and testing weights is very consistant within .1gr either way.
But i have found variances in powder batches and useing a different batch of powder i need to change the settings on the thrower from 61.5 back to 60.5 4 clicks on the dispenser didn`t think to check what the difference weighed. And yes i do have a electronic scale Dillon but do not trust them and use a ohaus beam scale weigh a weight on them and it is the same each time the electronic ones can very .1 or .2 either way in a heartbeat even weighing brass or projectiles yes its fast but have to keep checking with a set weight.
But i digress there is another powder thrower i have heard about recently that has been around for some time which make very large claims to how good they are the "Quick Measure" http://quick-measure.com/history.htm Now finding people who have tried these measures are hard to find but have asked the manufacturers to get in contact with 6mmBR.com and possably let them test and do a report on their dispencer.
And thank You Mr Perry for your posts seem some people think you are a pain in the arse and maybe you are at times but i can handle that for the good information i pick up from your posts and the other people replying. Some people need stimulation.
So thank You. Bob from Down Under.

 

[StephenPerry]

Aussie Bob
People do their best thinking when they are stimulated. Moses was a pain in the arse for the Egyptians and later for his own people. God was Moses's pain in the arse for a good reason. Everything I write on this Web challenges veterans of shooting to belly out with the readers. As Shrek said 'better out than in'. Most of you guys have a lot to offer. I find this Web unique for 2 reasons, one readers out number Posters by a hundred to one sometimes and 2 there is not a shotgun effect in the Posts that are made, some nice thought responses.
As far as vary measurements by lots of powder or long cut powders being hard to deal with. Powder has a specific gravity and different lots take on their own identity as they are extruded. That is why one should check by weight not volume. From our 2nd BR School Lawrence pointed out that he chases the weight and comes up for the average for each Range he has shot and has a standard average for new Ranges to him. He has been pre-loading for our Short Range competitions for several years. Lawrence has collected 2 National NBRSA titles in the last 3 years. For a look at Lawrence and his powder technique go to the Archived Articles in 6mmBR under Benchrest School.
Back in the 1980's 4198 was a hot powder in BR. Yeah it grinded and grunted alot as you chopped your way through a Shoot but guys claimed it was the powder in certain lots. Throw variation must have been scary but some guys would pay today's prices for a season's worth of 4198. For 4198, 4350, 4064 and other spaghetti powders I like my Lyman 55 straight. The 3 well adjustment allow for deep well cavity where most of the powder can crowd in leaving a smaller surface to cut. You guys ought to go the library and look for loading books at least 50 years old. Those guys knew more than we know about most loading techniques. Most every loading tool we have today comes out of designs of pre-60's pioneers. Let it be said Let it be done.
Stephen Perry

 

[Aussie_bob]

I have a friend over here who was shooting competition 40 odd years ago and still has the same powder thrower a pacific which is very good i have encourageing him back into competition now that he is retired so that i can learn some of the old ways of doing things and pick the good bits to mix with the new ways.
I do all my loads by weight, and when i can by velocity especially when changing powder batches, The variation i discussed in my last post even tho i came back by volume to the 32.8grs i normaly use i have found the velocity is up, 30Br 115gr projestiles normaly 2950fps 20feet in front of muzzle is about 60fps faster will do more testing when i get time as i like to keep my SD as low as possable in the single digits.
Pushes 125gr Ballistic Tips at same velocity they seat with the boat-tail pushing into the powder at base of neck.

 

[Aussie_bob]

I see RustyStud has a Quick measure now and is possably testing it as we speak and others have come out of the woodwork saying they have had them for years and they work very well.
So how come we haven`t heard more of them i have allready inquired about buying the boxed benchrest kit but the freight to Australia is near half the price of the kit on top will just have to wait for a friend visiting the states or someone that side coming over for a visit.

 

[StephenPerry]

Aussie Bob
Sounds like this Quick Measure is a Mechanical Dribbler. Like to hear how it works in the field. Should work fine since it's not operating in conjunction with an electronic scale. It operates on it's own montenum and the loader provides. Pictures of it would be nice. It is a powder thrower of a different nature.
As far as your friend's Pacific powder thrower they don't wear out. If he has good technique he can still throw good loads. He knows that. Like I said earlier guys that picked up loading anytime last Century are mentally tuned into what we call Progress today.
Stephen Perry

 

[BoydAllen]

http://www.quick-measure.com/

 

[Bobs243Ackley]

I use the Redding BR-30 with the Sinclair Upgrade Kit on it. This allows me to use the screw on one pound powder bottles and to use the integrated powder baffle that the adapter has. This kit also includes an extended drop tube with it. I have used this measure for the last 14 years and have found no need to go to another measure simply because it works for me. If it is not broke, don't fix it! I have been using it to load for the 6 PPC, and my 200 yard IHMSA loading, as well as all of my other rifle loading. I prefer the use of the barrel mic. on this unit over the click adjustments. I have found it to be very repeatable for my settings and have absolute faith in it. I have tested it against one of the big Harrels and found that it is more accurate for me than the Harrel. I feel that this is due to the fact that the Redding will always swipe off the same amount of powder regardless of the charge since the charge falls down into the mic. head. I load a LOT of IMR-4895, and as long as I run the unit smoothly, I do not have much in the way of cutting with it. One of the best things one can do to get the most consistent drops is to be very consistent in the way that you run the measure, and do not "knock" the measure with the handle when you run it!

One of the "Sleeper Measures" that we have tested is the Lee Perfect Powder Measure. This measure is one of the most consistent measures that we have ever tested out of the box! Yes, it looks cheap, and it is made from plastic, but it WORKS WELL! In testing, it never cut a powder charge, even with 4064! Talk about a big surprise! The only draw back to the unit is a flimsy metal stand that lets it vibrate. If Lee would make this a very stiff stand, they would have a real winner on their hands.

FWIW. In regard to the Quick Measure, Fred Moreo, of Sharp Shooter Supply, was reloading next to me at a 100 yard BR match. I asked him what he thought of the unit and he told me that he liked the way the unit worked and planned to keep on using it for loading for match work, as well as for his varmint loads.

Cordially,
Bob Blaine

 

[StephenPerry]

Thanks Bob your's is the kind of Post the shooters need to read about powder throwers. Almost every reloader started with a powder thrower. Hard to argue with success. I said earlier if I had to choose 1 thrower it would be a Redding. Now I have a Bruno we will see. I have 5 powder throwers I am happy with them all.
Stephen Perry

 

[Aussie_bob]

I have a LEE Perfect Powder measure and could not rely on it to throw consistant charges of AR2213sc/H4831sc 44.8gr but in throwing 16gr BM2/benchmark it would throw near perfect each time.
That is why i went to the Harrells now i am looking at the Quick-Measure in Kit form as it all comes packed in its own box and with seperat dispensers so can have them set for different rifles as some of the shoots i have been trevelling to i shoot 3 different rifles and do some hunting on the way out and back home with another rifle again and yes i take about six rifles my two Rimfire comp rifles then the two short range B/R rifles a 500m Fly rifle tho i have been shooting it with the 30BR
Then my hunting rifle and it could be .221 fireball or 17 Mach IV or the old trusty .243 have used the 30BR hunting just latly but 13.5 Lbs gets heavy after an hour walking in the scrub on a hot day and the 36X scope hasn`t got a large field of view for aquireing the target easily.

 

[Rustystud]

Powder measures:

I have a Lyman 55 that is 40 years old and measured several hundred thousand loads. I also have the following other measures RCBS, Redding BR30, Jones, Harrell, Lee Disc, and 5 Dillon progressive press Measures an a brand new Hornaday LNL and a brand new Quick Measure.

I have a RCBS, OHAS, Redding, mechanical Scale.

I have and RCBS Charge Master, and a Dillon Electronic Scale.

I am a FFL 06 licensed ammunition manufacture. I would say I have loaded my share of ammunition.

My pistol target shooting clients are PPC, Bullseye,,.38 waddcutters) IPSIC, IDPA,,9mm, 38Super, .38Special, .357Mag., 40W&W, and .45ACP) pistol shooters.

My rifle target shooters are Cross the Course, Match Rifle, and Service Rifle Shooters,.223Rem., 6BR, .243Win., .308Win, Long Range, F-Class,,6BR, 6BRX, 6Dasher, .243Win., .260Rem., 6.5 X .284, 308Win. .300WSM. .300Win Mag.) and Palma,.308)

My hunting clients are Large Game, Dangerous Game, and Varmint hunters.,loads from .505 Gibb down to .17Rem.)

My goals are to provide the best quality ammunition one can for the money.

As known pistol and ball powders can be consitently thrown with about any type of measure due to their small volumn and shape.

As also known extruded and log powders give the best consistency in centerfire rifles. They also are the most difficult to dispense with consistency of less than +/-.1 grain.

I find relative humidity and temperature the major factor in accurate reloading to loads less than +/-.1 grain.

I have a machine shop and have made modifications for most of the above listed measures. Some I have made improvements for and other I could not help.

Two nights ago I received the Quick Measure I ordered. I set it up to throw 25.5 grains of Varget. I then threw 100 dispensings measuring each. All were with in .05 yes, a half a tenth of a grain. I will experiment with IMR 4350 and H4831 next. But the inventer says it will throw within .1 with these powders up to about 45 grains and .15 up to 95 grains.

In comercial loading I have always provided +/-.15 loads and this is exceptable out to about 600 yards. With variences greater than .1 the ES will grow past 10FPS. With loads of .1 or less I have been able to get .5 groups at 100 yards with almost all of my test guns.

I am real excited about this Quick Measure and I will put it through a series of test. Using a Fowler bullet feeder, a MA Systems collator, and 31 tubes of primers I can load 3000+ rounds per hour of .223 or .308. I am going load for an hour and pull ever 100th round and see what the charge accuracy is.

I'll let you know what I find out.

Later
Rustystud
a/k/a Nathaniel G. Lambeth, Sr.
Custom Guns and Ammunition

 

[StephenPerry]

Rusty
Just guessing you sound like an elderly gentleman from Arizona with time on your hands that allows you to do all the great work you describe. I like that you mix the old and new in powder throwers and make modifications to the ones you have. No bitchin or moanin in your shop you just getter dun. Is your Lyman 55 the same orange one like I have. I also have a 55 that is grey that I bought from Sinclair with a Culver conversion back in 1977 when he was selling out of the back of his truck. What do you use for drop tubes with the throwers you use.
Rusty do you load at the range or in the field and what throwers do you take. This powder thread is giving out good info. Thanks
Stephne Perry

 

[Rustystud]

Stephen:

I bought the Lyman 55 used in 1971, when I was in highschool. It is gray with a black steel handle The internals are made of brass.

I dropped it off my bench onto the concrete floor last summer. The handle broke. I called Lyman to see about getting a replacement handle. They wanted as much for the part as I can buy a new Lyman 55 for wholsale. I told them thanks but not thanks and tig welded the handle back on. It is not pretty but it works. I thought about milling the handle end off and machining a new end with an extended handle. I have better things to do with my time.

I don't live in Arizona, I live in North Carolina. I wish every day had 36 hours instead of 24.

Rustystud
a/k/a Nathaniel G. Lambeth, Sr.
Custom Guns and Ammunition