Powder scales question/ BR & F Class only

[boltman13]

I now use the FX120i with the latest Auto throw and Auto Trickler. It is by far the fastest and most accurate system I have ever used. I won't bore you all by going over all of my past systems except to say they do not include a trued 1010 or a Chargemaster. Lyman Gen II and Gen 6 plus GemPro and Little Dandy trickler were close but took forever to use and the GemPro drifted too much. That said the single smallest 5 shot group I ever fired was in the late 1970's at 100 yards using a Lee Load All, the old red Lee dipper set, IMR4064, CCI LR primer, Winchester cases, in a Ruger 77 in 30-06 with a Weaver 4X scope and Speer 150 gr spitzer bullets. It was probably about 0.05-0.10". A bullet would barely go thru the hole. I only did it once and never had a group anywhere near that small again, with much better rifles, bullets case prep and powder measuring. Go figure!

 

[rsmithsr50]

read what it says.
it is a comment on the poor claim that .1gr powder variation does not matter.
it clearly does.
this poor level of communication is what happens when one mixes:
short range score bench rest
short rang group bench rest
long range bench rest
short range f class
long range f class
all in one discussion on what works best.

If I were that guy I would find a new powder, bullet, seating depth combo. I am just a amateur at this but have found a decent velocity flat spot for every barrel I have owned. Sometimes I had to try a couple of different powders to find the right combo but with a bit of persistence I have always found one. On that barrel I mentioned in a earlier post when I replaced it with the same brand, twist, and length. The replacement would not shoot 140 gn bullets of any flavor worth a damn, but loved Berger 130, and 123 SMKS with 4831 SC

On a different note yesterday I loaded 50 rounds of 6BR and instead of using my Lyman 55 throw and weighing on the A&D I decided to use my Chargemaster 1500 and then checking on the A&D. I was honestly surprised at it's accuracy. I did not record them but but of 50 rounds only 1 or 2 were off more than a couple of tenths

 

[rsmithsr50]

it does not matter.
it simply shows that .1 gr powder change does affect performance.
a claim that another said just did not matter.

What distance?

 

[rsmithsr50]

stay in context.
read what it says
not my target,
but it clearly shows that 0.1 gr of powder change does affect accuracy,
someone stated it did not.

#1 & #2 I'd try again.
The others, I'd add a grain & see if they tightened up.

 

[JimSC]

read what it says.
it is a comment on the poor claim that .1gr powder variation does not matter.
it clearly does.

Do you do Audette tests, OCW development testing or chrono testing looking for flat spots in the velocity curve over several tenths of a grain? If you why do you do it? Why not just try and find that one load and measure as precise as possible and not worry about how it shoots if it is off .1 on either side. I have also posted that when testing I do measure down to .02 gn plus or minus. Why then instead of match loads? Because when testing you need to get as accurate a measurement as possible to find those flat spots so when you are shooting a match if you are off .1 for whatever reason the velocity won't throw that shot high or low. Like I said I shoot F Class out to 800 and if I can get .5 MOA I am more than satisfied. If I were trying to get from the .1's to the zeros short range or .5's to .2's at 1000 or 1500 I may feel differently. My best so far is 10 shots into .4 @ 300 using loads thrown on my RCBS 1500 and checked to be within .5 on my A&D

 

[rsmithsr50]

quit trying to justify a poor statement.
you said a .1 did not matter.
I clearly showed that is does.
as I pointed out this entire thread is set up for failure. too many mixed use input.
what short range bench rest do you shoot ??

Do you do Audette tests, OCW development testing or chrono testing looking for flat spots in the velocity curve over several tenths of a grain? If you why do you do it? Why not just try and find that one load and measure as precise as possible and not worry about how it shoots if it is off .1 on either side. I have also posted that when testing I do measure down to .02 gn plus or minus. Why then instead of match loads? Because when testing you need to get as accurate a measurement as possible to find those flat spots so when you are shooting a match if you are off .1 for whatever reason the velocity won't throw that shot high or low. Like I said I shoot F Class out to 800 and if I can get .5 MOA I am more than satisfied. If I were trying to get from the .1's to the zeros short range or .5's to .2's at 1000 or 1500 I may feel differently. My best so far is 10 shots into .4 @ 300 using loads thrown on my RCBS 1500 and checked to be within .5 on my A&D

 

[JimSC]

quit trying to justify a poor statement.
you said a .1 did not matter.
I clearly showed that is does.
as I pointed out this entire thread is set up for failure. too many mixed use input.
what short range bench rest do you shoot ??

did I ever say I shot short range BR? Nope, read my posts I have only shot F class 300 - 800. I may try some short range BR next year, probably in the Ultimate BR discipline which I just discovered. Also I will be relocating next year to an area where I have a couple of 1000 yard ranges to shoot at so I want to try some long range benchrest. Your pic showed a load workup nothing surprising about some groups being better than others, but if that was my target I would try a different powder or bullet combo looking for something more forgiving. I look for powder nodes where .1 either way does not make a difference in POI, but that is just me. As far as the mixed input I agree

 

[rsmithsr50]

lets just say in BENCH REST that does not always happen.
something to do with an f class target x being SEVEN times the size of BR X AT 600,
but you will get to try if you go to real br, .

did I ever say I shot short range BR? Nope, read my posts I have only shot F class 300 - 800. I may try some short range BR next year, probably in the Ultimate BR discipline which I just discovered. Also I will be relocating next year to an area where I have a couple of 1000 yard ranges to shoot at so I want to try some long range benchrest. Your pic showed a load workup nothing surprising about some groups being better than others, but if that was my target I would try a different powder or bullet combo looking for something more forgiving. I look for powder nodes where .1 either way does not make a difference in POI, but that is just me. As far as the mixed input I agree

 

[JimSC]

looking forward to tru

lets just say in BENCH REST that does not always happen.
something to do with an f class target x being SEVEN times the size of BR X AT 600,
but you will get to try if you go to real br, .

looking forward to trying. You have to admit that if you can get a load to print at the same POI at xx.x plus or minus .1 gn's it is better than having a load that prints a good group at xx.x gns but looks like a shotgun at xx.x plus or minus .1 gns

A friend of mine told me a year or so ago I need to be practicing with smaller targets. I typically use .5 MOA stick on dots now for practice. That's just a tad larger than the size of a BR 10 ring at 600 if I am not mistaken

 

[rsmithsr50]

when I load on a progressive for my ar's bulk ammo, I look for a load that is just that, GOOD at plus or minus .1, not the best load.
not gonna happen in br. it is best load.
guys are testing and loading at the range for 600/1000

looking forward to tru


looking forward to trying. You have to admit that if you can get a load to print at the same POI at xx.x plus or minus .1 gn's it is better than having a load that prints a good group at xx.x gns but looks like a shotgun at xx.x plus or minus .1 gns

A friend of mine told me a year or so ago I need to be practicing with smaller targets. I typically use .5 MOA stick on dots now for practice. That's just a tad larger than the size of a BR 10 ring at 600 if I am not mistaken

 

[JimSC]

guys are testing and loading at the range for 600/1000

the one IBS match I observed was a 100/200 yard and a majority of the people shooting were loading between matches throwing straight to the case from the throw with no scale involved. It was a group size match so the X ring did seem to matter much and a smaller group was no matter where it was on the paper. That is your posts surprised me rsmith50. I wasn't sure the long range people BR do it differently but I have never observed or participated in one. Thanks SPJ, I looked it up last eve and did a bit more reading up on IBS and UBR. I have pretty much decided on trying the UBR shooting in the factory and or modified factory class when I relocate. It seems to be pure score from what I am reading

 

[Sniper338]

Fx 120i and trickler.

 

[rsmithsr50]

poor wording on my part. they do not come preloaded as much. more are coming early and tuning for the condition and loafing at the range, not so much during the match.

Speaking for myself, I do not have time to load in between relays at 600 yard events.

 

[rsmithsr50]

you still will have not shot real bench rest if that is your plan.

the one IBS match I observed was a 100/200 yard and a majority of the people shooting were loading between matches throwing straight to the case from the throw with no scale involved. It was a group size match so the X ring did seem to matter much and a smaller group was no matter where it was on the paper. That is your posts surprised me rsmith50. I wasn't sure the long range people BR do it differently but I have never observed or participated in one. Thanks SPJ, I looked it up last eve and did a bit more reading up on IBS and UBR. I have pretty much decided on trying the UBR shooting in the factory and or modified factory class when I relocate. It seems to be pure score from what I am reading

 

[JimSC]

you still will have not shot real bench rest if that is your plan.

I guess that would fall under opinion. I am not here to troll other peoples preferred shooting discipline will keep my opinion on that subject to myself. Anyway back to the OP which BR were you referring to. Long range or short range ?

 

[rsmithsr50]

my theory is that ,that is why they are in that group, and your name is not.

In theory or on paper.

I would like to hear from some of the seasoned guys on this. My guess is that even shooting long distance, Bart, Tom and some of the other seasoned guys don’t go to a match shooting loads that are tune sensitive to a .1 variance. Of course, that’s my theory.