Posing as a gunsmith?

[dragman]

The gunsmith I use has and does it all. I have some rules before I am comfortable with having work done.
1 - Clean shop (which I visit when I am up his way)
2 - Every machine you could need as a gunsmith
3 - No duel purpose shops, not knocking others but I don't want to see kids toys or household stuff sitting in the smiths work area
4 - someone fair and honest I can have a conversation with and not be rushed
5 - speed (sorry but waiting a year for a gun just is crazy)
LAST - Price, I am not rich but lets get real if your putting on a new barrel who cares about a couple bucks??? When you have 5K plus in a scoped rig and the cheap guy can slap a new barrel on for say $600 barrel, brake and work and the expensive PROVEN guy will do it for $900 why not?

 

[matthias]

As a working gunsmith at a brick and mortar shop I can say I don't let people in my machine shop. My shop has a 69 gmc pickup torn to pieces and several other projects I am working on as well.

That being said, all the work i do is covered with the customer before we start a project . I explain the process I take for any job thoroughly with the customer and usually things are done within a few weeks. I also explain what I can't do and where a person could get things done, example is fluting barrels .

As far as people posing as gunsmiths. I have at least one or two people a month come in to tell me about all the gunsmith work they do and at the same time drop something simple off for work. Mostly muzzle brake installs and other jobs that require a lathe. There are so many "gunsmiths " without lathes it is scary .

I would say the most important thing is if you see poop, smell poop, and hear poop from the mouth there is poop somewhere.

 

[Pres100]

"I'm not a gunsmith but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night"

I think with the recent explosion (pardon the pun) of the gun industry over the past couple of years, coupled with the amount of DIY information you can find on the Internet, some feel they are doing the same job, but in a limited scope. Some even have a lathe and have successfully chambered barrels. I think there are people that venture far outside of their capabilities and stretch the facts a bit overstating their capabilities.
I think that's why warnings and instructions always reference a "competent" or "reputable" gunsmith to do the work. The due diligence to find that individual is up to you.

 

[GAnderson]

A couple of questions have been asked with regards to gunsmiths and FFL's and I see that 1 person deleted a post and nobody has yet answered....thought that since there seemed to be some doubt in the original posters post whether or not his "gunsmith" had an FFL that maybe someone would know if it was a requirement that a gunsmith had to be an FFL holder in order to work on other people's guns? I was under the impression that a gunsmith did have to have an FFL in order to be in possession of other people's guns/actions....at least if they were to be left overnight or for a period of time....can anybody confirm this? Some friends and myself have recently been wondering this and I thought maybe someone here would know for sure.....a friend of mine kind of had a similar transaction as the OP and we began to wonder about this. Thanks in advance.

Gene

 

[matthias]

You need to have a ffl license to work on the guns. Either 01 or 07 depending on what you are doing. Even if you are painting it is required if the weapon stays with the gunsmith over night from one day to another.

 

[ballistic64]

I can consider myself very fortunate, my nationally known smith is 20 minutes to the north of my residence. ;D

 

[robbor]

I was taking machining classes at a community college, with an ex student and was subcontracted by a gunsmith shop here in CA. He was working on getting his FFL. I knew alot more than him about gunsmithing from you guys and br central. Everyones an expert. There was no real accuracy done, watched him chamber a barrel in class that i would have been ashamed to call my own.

 

[ARshuter]

We have a guy a couple towns over that calls himself a nationally know gunsmith. His claim to fame is he builds all the sniper guns for the Marines and Army. All he'll build on is a Sako action and only if he sells you the rifle which he strips all parts from to sell so he can "make some money" as he does his work for next to nothing. His prices start at $7,000. I've been in his shop twice over a 10 year period, his Smithy 3 in 1 machine was just as clean the second time I was in his shop as it was the first time. The thing I can't understand for the life of me is he is always busy.

 

[Joe Salt]

Maybe we need an Angie's List here on the forum!

Joe Salt

 

[dragman]

We have a guy a couple towns over that calls himself a nationally know gunsmith. His claim to fame is he builds all the sniper guns for the Marines and Army. All he'll build on is a Sako action and only if he sells you the rifle which he strips all parts from to sell so he can "make some money" as he does his work for next to nothing. His prices start at $7,000. I've been in his shop twice over a 10 year period, his Smithy 3 in 1 machine was just as clean the second time I was in his shop as it was the first time. The thing I can't understand for the life of me is he is always busy.

I believe I know exactly who your talking about. the SAKO thing gives him away.

 

[wmdron]

Maybe we need an Angie's List here on the forum!

Maybe we need an Angie's List here on the forum!

Joe Salt

That's not a bad idea Joe

 

[SDWhirlwind]

I call myself a "gunsmith" (machinist doesn't register with gun people) because when I bought my SB 10L (Hvy 10) lathe they said "You can do anything you want with it"! Wait.......it just hit me......you don't suppose they meant the lathe was capable of "do anything and everything" and not the operator? Boy, now I am a bit confused, hummm, guess it is too early for much serious thinking!

 

[shortgrass]

Being a machinist doesn't make one a gunsmith. Being a gunsmith doesn't make one a machinist. I know plenty of machinists who'd have to have gunsmith machining jobs completely explained in detail to them. A machinist probably wouldn't have a clue about how to make a stock, unless it was a machined stock. Machinists expect their work to sellable as it comes off the machine(s). Hand work, to a machinist, is totally out of the question. Hand work to a gunsmith is expected. Blend a "machinist" with gunsmith training and you get a good & knowledgeable gunsmith/machinist. And to the original post, everyone want's a piece of the pie. When there's someone who believes there's money to be made, they'll be trying for a piece of it any way they can. And, being a gunsmith today is cool.

 

[ARshuter]

We have a guy a couple towns over that calls himself a nationally know gunsmith. His claim to fame is he builds all the sniper guns for the Marines and Army. All he'll build on is a Sako action and only if he sells you the rifle which he strips all parts from to sell so he can "make some money" as he does his work for next to nothing. His prices start at $7,000. I've been in his shop twice over a 10 year period, his Smithy 3 in 1 machine was just as clean the second time I was in his shop as it was the first time. The thing I can't understand for the life of me is he is always busy.

I believe I know exactly who your talking about. the SAKO thing gives him away.

That was my intention. I hope to save some of the good people on here the anguish of dealing with him. Apparently your not the only one that knows to whom I am referring from the looks of my inbox.

 

[M14AMU]

Don't confuse 'gunsmith' with 'Rifle Builder'!!

 

[shortgrass]

I can think of several "gunsmiths" that build some mighty fine rifles. If threading chambering and crowning a barrel, sparying on CerraKoat, installing a Jewell trigger, and bedding it into a McMillian stock w/machined in pillars makes one a "rifle builder", well,,,,,,,,,, each is entitled to his opinion...

 

[25AI260]

to claim your a gunsmith i think you first need to have a business an a tax stamp... ffl lic. an insurance

just the tip of the iceburge... i wonder how much is just BS..?

1. A private citizen in the USA can "make" a Gun or "Repair" a Gun, as long as it is not covered by the NFA rules ( ie, Not a Short Barrelled Rifle, Not a machine gun, not a smoothbore Handgun/SBR)...for these latter functions, one must have the appropriate ATFE Class Licence and pay the SOT (Special Occupational Tax) and maintain records etc.

"Make" includes make from raw steel, make from parts, convert from an existing gun, etc.

2. The private citizen can only "Make" or "Repair" on and for his own account and personal use...There is not even a requirement to "serial" the Piece.

3. Once the private citizen wishes to "loan", "sell", "trade", or otherwise dispose of said "homemade" firearm (By Bankruptcy, Family court property settlement, Testamentary legacy), then the necessary paperwork has to be done, a serial number applied in the correct format (UN mandated rules) and any Tax paid to the ATFE as required, also the correct forms filed.

4. Any Making or Repairing Firearms on the account of others, whether for personal profit or not, is regulated by the FFL rules.

5. Once one has an FFL and paid any taxes connected with it, one has effectively signed away certain Constitutional rights regarding Search and seizure, Warrantless searches, etc; The Paperwork trail has to be maintained, and Records kept in good, up to date, working order.

6. An FFL is a Federal Licence; the States & Counties and Cities have other legislation to cover how an FFL can carry on business, some with taxes, some without. All of these have to be adhered to as well.

The States etc. cannot prevent you getting an FFL if your are "clean", but they can make it very difficult Bureaucratically, to carry on Business, whether in a "shopfront" style, or privately. ( Planning Laws,Business Permits, Fire Regulations, etc, etc.). Availablility of Public Liability Insurance is also a Limiting Factor.

7. So far, I have NOT mentioned any "Technical Qualifications" for the Issue of an FFL...there are none. Some jurisdictions may require that a person supplies proof of technical training before advertising oneself as a "Gunsmith"
( " Fair trading" or "Trade descriptions" laws.). But the federal sphere does not interest itself in a purely "commercial" matter.

8. I think that about covers it. I will not go into the NFA area, as that is a two-inch book on its own....Contact Small Arms Review for a copy of "The Rules" or any information in this specialised field.

 

[shortgrass]

I thought that a gunsmith had to have an FFL in order to have in his possession your action? Is there an exemption for gunsmiths in regards to you dropping off a rifle/action and leaving it in his possession?

Gene

No, there's no exemption. The gunsmith that only builds using a customer supplied firearm/action need have a 01 Dealers FFL. Hobbiests, who do work for others, seem to get around that, though. Over the past few years of the custom 'boom' many are "flying under the radar". If you happen to hold a FFL and and manage to not hold up what ATF says you are supposed to, you might end up in front of a federal judge. If you're a hobbiest and manage to get ATFs' attention you are liable to only get an official "Cease and Desist' letter from them. Holding a FFL is only about your legal obligation to firearms law, it implies nothing of ones abilities. Depending upon interpretation of the statutes, the 'contractor' in the original post may need a 07 Manufactures FFL, which is a whole nother 'can of worms' in itself.

 

[338 Mollett]

A good gunsmith can take a plow and make a part for a 1911,fitting it perfectly.I am no gunsmith!I will do a good job fitting,chambering,and crowning a barrel. And I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night ;D

 

[butchlambert]

Well,
I'll say this. A FFL doesn't make you a gunsmith. All the talent and ability in the World will not make you honest.