Posing as a gunsmith?

[bdotson]

Have you ever heard of some one posing as a gunsmith? I bought a custom gun from a person on the internet a while back. While he never told me he was a gunsmith I was led to believe he was. This was a custom build gun. I asked for a a5 stock. jewel trigger, and a prediator action along with a Krieger heavy barrel in a 308. He said that would be no problem but insisted on a benchmark barrel. As usual there was a wait period then the gun was finished. He was a ffl dealer and my new rifle was ready to ship from his so called shop. We talked about reamers freebore barrel contours etc. Other than the benchmark barrel everything had been smooth till time to ship and pay. He wanted me to pay in full for the rifle ( I had already paid for most of the build parts) just pay for the assembly and provide my shipping address. Now it started to get a little tricky, I had a better idea. I told him I will stop by your shop tomorrow with cash and pick it up. He had more excuses than you could ever dream up. He was to be in and out most of the day, had to go to the range and shoot some of his custom builds. I said not a problem where is the range I will meet you there with my scope and we can shoot the rifle before I pay. NO NO NO its a private range you cant come out. OK no problem when will you open in the morning and I will be there when you open before you leave for the range. NO NO NO I may go tho the range from my home. I say No problem when will you be back? He says Never know these things take quite a while sometimes. I say Not a problem I will meet you for lunch and I will buy. NO NO NO I want have time for that. So I ask is there no one at you shop? and He says NO it will be closed while i'm out. Now I am a slow learner but I am starting to smell a rat at this point. I say Ill tell you what ( his shop is about 4-5 hours from me) We were on the phone one afternoon. I said I am leaving right now I will see you in 4-5 hours.. Oh no I cant do that. Now I had a address to send the money that I had already sent( Google maps showed it a residence). I read it to him. this is you address right? He said yes. I told him I don't know what time you get up in the mornings but I will be the guy parked in your drive when you wake up. And I did just that.
He lived in a nice home in a subdivision he had no shop no equipment (claimed it was in his garage) I bet he has never built a rifle in his life. He sends peoples actions to benchmark has them chamber them gets them back assembly them and poses as a custom gunsmith I got my rifle a thin barrel benchmark barreled gun shoots 4" at 100yds with factory ammo. Please excuse the rant just had to vent. I vented to a gunsmith friend of mine about this and he told me it was quite common. Has anyone else ever heard of this?

 

[Erik Cortina]

I've heard of it. The question is, how did you find this guy?

 

[Erik Cortina]

The same thing happened to a friend of mine. He told me he was having a rifle built by a "gunsmith" and asked if I knew him. I told him I've never heard of the guy. When the rifle was completed he brought it to me to inspect it. Sure enough, the guy had not built this rifle. The rifle was stamped S&S on the barrel and also in the bedding. So my friend lucked out and is happy with his rifle since it was actually built by a reputable smith, but it could very well have went the other way.

 

[bdotson]

I've heard of it. The question is, how did you find this guy?

I found him on another forum. I have not torn the rifle down but suspect the barrel is good and have no doubt benchmark was ok. I see now why he was aganst the Krieger barrel. I suspect the bedding job is the problem with the 4" groups he did that. I am by no means a gunsmith but I have been called a machinist and have built and chambered a few of my own rifles. Once I thought he was a hoax it did not take long for the cream to rise. This ole boy has never been around any machine work. He is a gun painter. I saw the same thing when I was building custom knives a few years back. There were guys that would buy cheap knife kits and glue the handle on the and call themselves knife builders. They were handle gluers. Same thing

 

[338 Mollett]

Sadly this has become the American way.He could have taken a 100k in the name of an LLC and you would have never recovered a dime!

 

[savagedasher]

I never seen a Gun Smith that didn't have a FFL. Larry

 

[potatoe]

Wow, have you confronted him since you have fired your gun? Tried to make it right in any way? I know I would confront his reputation on the other forum relentlessly if he does not stand behind his "work"

 

[bdotson]

I never seen a Gun Smith that didn't have a FFL. Larry

Oh he had a ffl and did all the proper transfer paper work. And you got your rifle for the price you agreed on. I just don't think the said builder was the actual rifle builder. If that makes any sence to you? I might not have done a very good job of explaining the situation. I feel the "builder" posing as a gunsmith is actually acting as a general contractor while implying that he was the gunsmith himself (very carful never to say I WILL CUT THE CHAMBER IN THIS GUN MYSELF) When I ask t see his equipment he did not have time to show me around He then told me he had "a guy working for him that does some chambering for him" when I ask for a reamer print he said he did not have it but would be glad to get it for me (never did) That help any with the explanation

 

[Eddie Harren]

"I've never seen a gunsmith who didn't have an FFL." There are several who visit this and other shooting sites. Never be afraid to ask for license # and references.

 

[bdotson]

Wow, have you confronted him since you have fired your gun? Tried to make it right in any way? I know I would confront his reputation on the other forum relentlessly if he does not stand behind his "work"

No I have not said a word to him since. There was no guarantee on the rifle accuracy and the gun will cycle and shoot. I did however buy a Krieger barrel and will install it myself as well as correct any bedding mistake and will get where I want to be. I am now starting to think this might be a common practice. I have heard of several accounts of this happening to others as well. If I would have let him ship the gun I would have never known any different. The accuracy is below standard and I have not yet tried to see why. I would not think this is fraud just a bad practice.

 

[bdotson]

"I've never seen a gunsmith who didn't have an FFL." There are several who visit this and other shooting sites. Never be afraid to ask for license # and references.

References would not be a problem as well as ffl #He has turned out some very accurate rifles and has a pretty big following. He is a good contractor I was just the unlucky guy who got a problem and that's ok. I can fix it. Most who deal with him are very happy. for most it is there first custom build gun and most shoot pretty good, there a little pricey but that's ok too I guess. I bet if I told him the gun would not shoot he would try and make corrections. I am not going to send him my gun back. that is my fault I have never even told him of the problem. just pointing out his way of doing business. I guess its ok to do that. We hire contractors to build us a house and they never drive a nail. so?

 

[muddy72]

Something similar to this with smokeless muzzleloaders was happening at 1 time. IIRC they had posted a pic of a finished gun on their site from a forum member and claimed it as their build when in fact they had taken the pic from a social site. This particular member always uses a particular background for his photos. When the "Gunsmith" was confronted, within a few hours their whole site changed. There was also a few other photos on social sites of builds that were clearly not theirs. Got caught!

 

[Patch700]

Some questions you could have asked prior to acquiring his services...

1) How long have you been smithing for.
2) From whom did you learn or apprentice.
3) Do you have a list of clients that can be contacted.

In reality these questions can be somewhat intrusive to some people and they may get apprehensive about you questioning their work.. However a good smith should be proud of their work and have no issues putting their name to something they did.

The same can be said for his equipment etc... If his shop is off limits or has some kind of area51 type scenario to it something is awry.

 

[Ggmac]

I am a retired rifle smith , still keep liability ins , do occasional work for friends . Recently a fellow shooter had shown some interest in accuracy . He came in shooting a M1A . So I chamber , thread some barrels , explain , loan books on rifle accuracy building , so next move is his . He gets a #7 FFL manuf lic .
Long story short , he is the EXPERT , now buying prefit and chambered Savage barrels , installing on stock ,UNTRUED receivers , adding a folding stock and actually selling a few at $3000 to $4,500 . All his expertise learned in maybe 10 days on and off while watching me in the last year .
Go figure !

 

[GAnderson]

I thought that a gunsmith had to have an FFL in order to have in his possession your action? Is there an exemption for gunsmiths in regards to you dropping off a rifle/action and leaving it in his possession?

Gene

 

[BoydAllen]

I am always amazed by people who seem to have very casual methods for picking a gunsmith. In my experience, smiths that build top competition rifles charge no more than those that do not. Why in the world would you deal with someone who had no credentials? The key to all of this is research.

 

[potatoe]

I agree with Boyd, not to dig at the OP but if they aren't very well known I don't mess with them. I have no idea what some of the less known guys charge, but I'll stick with my $200/chamber jobs

 

[Ggmac]

Agree. Usually known gunsmiths only become that way ,is because someone has been proficient and dedicated enough to win matches . Beautiful walnut and rust blued customs are not in vogue anymore .

 

[dcali]

I am always amazed by people who seem to have very casual methods for picking a gunsmith. In my experience, smiths that build top competition rifles charge no more than those that do not. Why in the world would you deal with someone who had no credentials? The key to all of this is research.

Ain't that the truth. There are far too many guys with reputations, decades of experience, and a 3 week turn around to put up with this kind of nonsense. Sorry to hear the story, but hopefully it will save the next guy the same experience.

 

[RHux]

I watched a " Gunsmith "" chuck a barrel in the headstock. Then without turning on the lathe run the reamer in with a ratchet wrench. After assembly low and behold the headspace was too tight so he took a file the the lugs until the bolt would close ..... He has been in business for 40yrs and has lots of customers.