Poor Runout with Redding "S" Full Length Size Die

[amlevin]

its the way it sizes the neck. the collet die squeezes the neck around a mandrel that is replaceable with any size you want. there is no "drawing" of the brass just compression.

The mandrel is also centered up to a point on the flash hole by the de-priming pin. If the flash hole is centered on the case axis, the neck is reformed along this axis as well.

 

[BoydAllen]

As has been said, the degree of sizing is determined by the diameter of the mandrel. One more thing; read the directions, and pay particular attention to the part that says that you shouldn't operate the die without a case in place. Doing so will bend the fingers of the collet. I set mine differently than they tell you to. I set the die so that when I run the ram all the way up, I feel a slight toggle at the top of the stroke. (I use a Rock Chucker for this.) Their approach involves setting the die low enough that the ram does not top out and applying consistent pressure on the press handle, pushing the shell holder against the bottom of the collet sleeve slightly below the top of the stroke, with consistent pressure. My friend, who does it that way, tries for about 25# pressure on the handle. In any case, if you don't have enough neck tension, don't apply more pressure, either modify your mandrel, or order others that are smaller in diameter. When you get the die, I would suggest that you take it completely apart and study how it works, as well as inspect it to see if it needs a little polishing up, and lubrication. Good luck. Tell us about your results.

 

[Innovative]

I use the Reddin "S" Type dies and run-out is consistantly .001" - .002"

The key is to adjust your FL die height to bump the shoulder - .001" and no more. This requires measuring. I use the Digital Headspace Gauge to set my FL die height accurately. Handloads should never get squeezed into the chamber, and when cases are resized too much, they lose concentricity. They also stretch too far when they're fired.

 

[BoydAllen]

How much are the fired necks reduced in diameter by sizing?

 

[Tozguy]

Lawrence,
I think that Boyd's description for setting up a collett die is the most consistent with how the die is designed to work. Valentine's description of setting the die up in the toggle over zone is asking for trouble.

When ordering a collett die you might consider buying an extra mandrel ($10) along with it so that you can try different neck tension without screwing up the OEM mandrel.

 

[BoydAllen]

Let me make a little admission of past fallibility. Way back, I put so much pressure on the bottom of a collet's skirt, that it deformed so much that the collet could not be removed from the die body. (30-30 caliber for cast loads) This did not happen with one sizing, but over a period of time. In that same time frame, I sized .220 Swift cases with so much force that their necks had visible ribs that corresponded to the slits in the collet. The press was a Rock Chucker that I still have. Since then I have learned to engage my brain earlier in the process. The last time that I used a collet die, I could not tell where the collet splits were when I finished, and the die was unchanged. As Tozguy wrote, the toggling approach has the potential of causing problems. I still use it but with a more enlightened feel for setting the die. In my defense, those Swift rounds shot just fine, and the cases did not have any failures. Heck, I suppose that a case could be made that the ribs improved centering within the factory chamber neck. Seriously, if you need more neck tension, don't do as I did, get a smaller mandrel.

 

[MrMajestic]

MVW, Look in the bulletin for today and click the link for case wall variation and it will take you to German's blog. This is why Redding is saying it is your cases. Not saying they are right or wrong however I perform this measurement to all my rifle cases.

 

[BoydAllen]

Lawrence,
It is not that I was criticizing anyone's approach. In truth, I didn't read the long post because it is instructions on how to do what I already know how to do. My last post was about my past mistakes, written to make readers aware of what can happen if toggling is carried an extreme. I still toggle, but with much more care in setting the die. The way that my friend sets up works too, and has less potential for damaging equipment, which is probably why the factory advocates that approach. At the time that collet dies were introduced, Lee didn't make anything remotely as sturdy as my Rock Chucker, and given the construction of some of their less expensive presses, some thought in that direction was/is certainly appropriate.
Boyd

 

[MVW]

MrMajestic: If i recall correctly, German cut a case in half to demonstrate case wall thickness in one of his articles. I might do that just to see what is up, but if the bushing dies require perfect brass, I am not sure what value they provide to me.

The collet die looks a little complicated, but screwing up a $20 die would not be the end end of the world.

 

[joejo]

The collet die looks a little complicated, but screwing up a $20 die would not be the end end of the world.

trust me the die is anything but compilcated. i have used them for over 12 years. heck i was able to successfully use the dies when i was 17 and had no idea what i was doing when i was reloading. ;D

 

[MVW]

Joejo - That is encouraging!

 

[Tozguy]

Lawrence,

As requested in your previous post, this is my explanation of why to prevent a press from toggling over when using a Lee collett die.

• The Lee collett die has an ‘automatic’ STOP when sizing is complete. Once the collett-neck and neck-mandrel clearances have been reduced to zero the collett cannot go any farther no matter how hard you try. Allowing this feature to control the sizing operation provides the most consistent result from case to case because it accommodates some variation in neck wall thickness. There is no NEED to use the limit of travel of the ram as a stop in this set up like we do with other types of dies to control the sizing operation.

• To work, collett dies do not need the extreme pressures encountered at the top of the ram stroke where the mechanical advantage of the linkage approaches infinity ie. when ‘toggling over’. If the sizing process is completed (ie. stopped by the collett) before the ram reaches the top of its stroke, toggling over is only going to put unnecessary strain on the die and press, possibly to the extent of damaging the die.

• It is conceivable that when a collett die is set up to allow the press to toggle over, variation in neck wall thickness will create variation in the effort it takes to toggle over. Cases with necks on the thin side might not even be sized completely. At the least, the toggle over set up leaves the door open to variation in neck tension on the bullet.

At best, setting a collett die up in the toggle over zone is a very delicate operation as M. Valentine indicated. But using the toggling over feature in a collett die set up simply because it is possible is obviously counterproductive. Collett dies work perfectly well in presses that don’t toggle over. Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

Regards

 

[amlevin]

Toggling Over with a Lee Collet die isn't as damaging to the case as it is to the die itself. As stated, once the collet has compressed the case neck against the mandrel it's not going any farther. The excessive force generated by the press in the "Cam Over" mode can damage the collet activating bushing by expanding it's opening. Eventually it will no longer move in the die body, failing to release the jaws, and then crushing the shoulder of all future cases.

Voice of experience speaking here :-[

 

[MVW]

Looping back to the begining - at some point I may have a new barrel put on my gun, so I am wondering if I should sell the dies or are there applications where the bushing dies might work better and hence be worth keeping?

I think the run out on fired cases is <0.001 and some I have turned. Even if I just take the necks down a few thousandths, it still adds run out. This gets back to the previous comment that Redding claims it is the brass. If that is the case should I sell them?

Mike

 

[Innovative]

I have used both the Lee neck sizing collet die and the Redding S-Type dies. I'll take the Redding die any day of the week. My case run-out is .001" or less. Every once in a while the run-out on one of my handloads will be .002" That's nothing to worry about.

On the other hand ...... I know two shooters that do equally well with the Lee collet die ...... This is a good example of personal preferance. There's usually more than one good way to perform a task.

 

[BoydAllen]

Innovative,
How much are you sizing down your necks? (fired minus sized)

 

[Innovative]

BoydAllen .......

That depends on the caliber and the brass thickness at the case neck. For .224 calibers I use - .001" to - .002"
and I use - .002" to - .003" for .308 caliber bullets. I decide by my notes from previous handloads or how it "feels" when seating the first bullet or two.

 

[MVW]

Innovative,

I think Boyd was asking how much neck sizing you are doing, For example, my fired 3308 brass has a neck OD of about 0.341 and I need to size it down to roughly 0.332.

Mike

 

[mikecr]

I don't use collet dies, but I can see where they would be more forgiving and provide better results with less favorable conditions(like SAAMI chambers).
That doesn't mean bushing dies won't work as well or better with more favorable conditions, IMO.

When Redding says it's your brass, they may be right & brand really makes no difference.
And/or, it could be your press, and\or the amount and location of FL sizing.
Your seating might be terrible. Your measure of runout might be invalid.

The reason I say this is because I don't have any of the bushing die 'issues' implied here.
My brass is culled to same thickness & low thickness variance, neck turned, and Wilson inline dies used for NS & seating. With this, and ONLY minimal bumping, my runout rarely approaches 1thou. I use Redding bushings in my Wilson dies.
Based on this, I give partial credit to Redding's notions.
The bushing system isn't perfect, but most of the time neither is our brass, and damn sure not our sizing of it..
Eliminate all the factors before/after the bushing action itself, and you will produce loaded TIR <.001 off the ogives. No problem.

The implications here about adjusting neck tension with collet dies is hard for me to picture(maybe because I haven't used one). This is an actual feature of bushing sizing(through length) that I sometimes need.
Are collets adjustable for LENGTH of sizing?
If so, that's another plus for them.
If not, then this should be considered from multiple aspects.

 

[jo191145]

An overlooked subject?

Gotta admit I've never checked any of my rounds for concentricity. Never bought a guage. Never felt the need I quess.

When encountering these problems its my opinion that a reloader should also verify the ram top and shellholder are both concentric with the press.
I always noticed my cases entered the die a little crooked. Was'nt until I started loading some longer stuff like 30-06 that I really took note of it.

Not being a machinist I raised the ram to top and used my calipers depth measure to check the top of the ram.
Amazing how far off it was. A little file work and it was "unprofessionnally" squared to the die seat of the press.

Can't imagine a shellholder on a crooked ram top pushing just one side of the brass is helping anyone make straight cases.
Just something else to think about.