Poor Runout with Redding "S" Full Length Size Die

[Innovative]

mikecr ......
Not exactly. Any decent FL die will resize the whole neck, bump the shoulder and resize the tapered body. It all gets done properly when the die height is set accurately.

 

[BoydAllen]

For those of you who shoot factory chambers (I do too.) , have a neck turner, and a one piece die, Take one of your old cases, turn the neck till it cleans up all the way around. load it, fire it, and then pull the decapping assembly out of your FL die, lube and size it, with a .001 shoulder bump Then run it on your concentricity gauge, and come tell us what your results were. Now imagine that you have a reamer that coordinates with that die, so that the cases have .002-.003" neck tension, loaded neck clearance in the same range, and .001 or less at the shoulder and head. Now, you know what I am talking about, very straight, and uniform ammunition that is a perfect fit in the chamber. It doesn't get any better. And you thought that bushing dies were the top of the heap

 

[hogan]

Lots of ideas here....


#1, Try using a Forster lock ring in place of the Redding. A lock ring that bears on the die with its fastener cants the die. Forster uses a split ring design with tensioner that draws up across the threads without bearing against them. $5 that is worth it.

#2, Try adjusting your sizer die while the decap rod remains speared through the flash hole.

#3, Try polishing your sizing ball, if using one, so it smoothly exits case necks. Redding provides the decap pin holder only option with all new Type S dies. Can also turn the size ball down to a smaller dimension on a lathe or taper it.

#4, We are talking 7/8x14 dies here, right? What the hell do you expect??? Get yourself a Harrell's press, the one with the side arbor and use LE Wilson sizer die w/o the bushing if makes you more confident. No way can a threaded die compare to a press-in die for perfect sizing. Really want perfection? Send fired cases to Wilson and get your die cut to your exact chamber dimension, or keep chasing the concentricity dragon and buying the gauges and gear you want excuse to own...

 

[BoydAllen]

I have fitted dies from Wilson. They are good...BUT some of us regularly shoot loads that need FL sizing. From your remarks I gather that you have not built a rifle with a tight neck chamber that does not require an expander ball when using a matched FL sizing die. Or that you have not tried a die that has had its neck honed out so that the expander drag can hardly be felt. Under these conditions, the sized brass is extremely straight. Expander ball related problems are caused by the ID of the neck portion of the die being too small for the thickness of the brass being used. If that issue is taken care of, there is no problem.

 

[hogan]

I have fitted dies from Wilson. They are good...BUT some of us regularly shoot loads that need FL sizing. From your remarks I gather that you have not built a rifle with a tight neck chamber that does not require an expander ball when using a matched FL sizing die. Or that you have not tried a die that has had its neck honed out so that the expander drag can hardly be felt. Under these conditions, the sized brass is extremely straight. Expander ball related problems are caused by the ID of the neck portion of the die being too small for the thickness of the brass being used. If that issue is taken care of, there is no problem.

Boyd,

if your remarks cited above were addressed my way, your discernment is spot-on. I don't use arbor press dies and choose not to own any tight-neck chambered rifles. I have worked-over some of my Redding type S dies, and improved 10 or 15 chambers, some that were orig custom-built match barrels.

Not really sure what effect/affect a honed neck sizing die has upon the resistance of sizer ball being removed. I don't know of any sizer balls that are located high enough on the decap rod to put them into action with the neck sizing area of a die when inserted or withdrawn. Maybe I'm mistaken, but seems the neck area of any sizing die is far away from the expander ball when it does its work...

What I recited about die alignment I recall learning from Fred Sinclair's book on die and scope mount adjustments. Fred and his collaborator express the problem with sizer balls as one of over-working the brass and pulling it out of alignment because the neck sizing section of the die tightens the neck, then the removal of the sizer ball expands it back sometimes several thousandths. If the decap rod is not centered in the die, or the case can't float a bit in the shellholder, there is distortion and major runout induced. Reducing the expander by polishing with crocus cloth etc was their remedy to reduce the grabbing and oversize effect/affect of the expander ball.... Or so I recall from the Sinclair handbook I bought over 17yrs ago and only rarely revisit.


I still don't know what you mean by,"....Some of us regularly shoot loads that need FL sizing." I think what you mention here is a chamber issue. Any chamber that is cut so generously as to require regular FL sizing is likely the cause of more problems than any loaded ammunition runout.

 

[BoydAllen]

When a case is sized, the neck is reduced in size, and then it is pulled over the expander ball. If the difference between the inside diameter of the neck (before it goes over the ball) and the expander ball is large enough, it creates so much pull that the shoulder of the case deforms from the pull, and because it does not do so evenly, the case neck is cocked in relation to the CL of the body of the case. If you increase the ID of the neck portion of the die, the inside of the case neck is only slightly larger than the expander, so that it does not take very much force to pull the expander through the neck. The shoulder does not yield, and the neck stays as aligned with the body as it was before expanding. Tips about polishing expanders and lubing the inside of necks help, but having the ID of the neck part of the die larger is much more effective. FYI Forster offers this service for their dies, for a very small fee, and for quite a bit more Hornady will make you a custom die, to your specifications.

In short range benchrest, which I practice for more than compete in these days, the pressures that are commonly loaded to are hot enough that most shooters prefer to FL size after every firing, so that the position of the rifle on the bags will not be disturbed by having to force the bolt closed, and the risk of galling locking lugs is reduced. I should add that if you have never used a closely fitted Fl die, you probably associate FL sizing with all sorts of evils that are not a problem with the dies that we use. It is most definitely not a chamber design issue, but rather a pressure issue. Recreational shooters may look at barrel life, case life, and convenience. Competition shooters (at least the short range crowd) are concerned about one thing....accuracy, and if that comes at a cost (reduced brass and barrel life), then that is the cost of being competitive. Actually, because my die is such a close fit, my brass lasts a very long time, but then I generally shoot load that are only hot, not very hot. If you can get away with only neck sizing, for a number of firings, your load pressures pretty much have to be moderate, and it they meet your goals ( I have seen some very accurate loads that did not generate high pressures.) then there is no issue.

 

[jo191145]

Yep, My 6PPC with older brass can get away with being necksized just once before requiring FL sizing again. Perhaps new brass could get a few extra firings.
Either way it makes no sense to jump back and forth with sizer dies. FL everytime adds consistency as long as its done correctly and with a decent set of dies.

 

[Innovative]

jo191145 ............. +1

 

[MVW]

This has ended up being a long, but quite informative discussion. Just to follow up on the many excellent suggesitons on the collet die - it worked just as everyone suggested that it would.

I should only mention that I rotate the case on the shell holder a couple or three times and that seems to help remove any residual runout, such that the case necks runout is well less than 0.001. I also rotate the case as I seat the bullet and that seems to reduce the run out at the ogive.

I like the idea of a custom die and figure that it will be the next step, but for the next few weeks I think I'll just go to the range and shoot some decent ammo for a change.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[amlevin]

I should only mention that I rotate the case on the shell holder a couple or three times and that seems to help remove any residual runout, such that the case necks runout is well less than 0.001. I also rotate the case as I seat the bullet and that seems to reduce the run out at the ogive.

Rotating the case when using a Collet Die also helps minimize the "ribs" that can sometimes form on the outside of the case neck. Since there are breaks in the contact area these little high spots get ironed out when the case is rotated and the ram raised again.

 

[bigedp51]

Mr. BoydAllen

I think I have discovered a new way to setup my Lee Collet dies for neck uniformity and bullet tension. BUT I have a small problem that requires your vast knowledge of reloading. When the torque gets too high my duct tape rips loudly and my wife yells downstairs and tells me to go outside and do that. Mr. BoydAllen what should I do to keep my wife happy and the $hit from hitting the fan?

 

[gilream]

Lawrence,

As requested in your previous post, this is my explanation of why to prevent a press from toggling over when using a Lee collett die.

• The Lee collett die has an ‘automatic’ STOP when sizing is complete. Once the collett-neck and neck-mandrel clearances have been reduced to zero the collett cannot go any farther no matter how hard you try. Allowing this feature to control the sizing operation provides the most consistent result from case to case because it accommodates some variation in neck wall thickness. There is no NEED to use the limit of travel of the ram as a stop in this set up like we do with other types of dies to control the sizing operation.

• To work, collett dies do not need the extreme pressures encountered at the top of the ram stroke where the mechanical advantage of the linkage approaches infinity ie. when ‘toggling over’. If the sizing process is completed (ie. stopped by the collett) before the ram reaches the top of its stroke, toggling over is only going to put unnecessary strain on the die and press, possibly to the extent of damaging the die.

• It is conceivable that when a collett die is set up to allow the press to toggle over, variation in neck wall thickness will create variation in the effort it takes to toggle over. Cases with necks on the thin side might not even be sized completely. At the least, the toggle over set up leaves the door open to variation in neck tension on the bullet.

At best, setting a collett die up in the toggle over zone is a very delicate operation as M. Valentine indicated. But using the toggling over feature in a collett die set up simply because it is possible is obviously counterproductive. Collett dies work perfectly well in presses that don’t toggle over. Anyway, that’s my story and I’m sticking with it.

Regards

Tozguy...Excellent comments. Your third bullet point is spot on. My Lee Collet Die instructions specifically state if using a "cam over type press" like a Rockchucker, to screw the die down and additional 3 full turns to eliminate the possibility of camming over. It is very easy to feel the case neck yield and compres against the mandrel. Adding additional pressure is of no value. The collet dies work great for a couple of my factory rifles. I could not be happier with them.

I learned the hard way when applying too much pressure to the collet die. The threads stripped and the top screw cap came off. It was a very easy fix. The nice gentleman at Lee sent me another cap.
Mike

 

[BoydAllen]

Ed,
J4 Match grade duct tape, twice as many wraps....
Boyd

 

[gilream]

I've used a little different method. Not happy with any of my F/L sizing dies including my Forster Benchrest Sizing die in .308.

For Neck Sizing only I use a Lee Collet Die and get consistent runout of <.001.

When it's time to F/L Size or bump back shoulders I use a Redding Body Die and then finish with a run through the Lee Collet. Same results. No more lube in the case necks, finding the right sized bushing, etc. Sure, it's an extra step but I can't complain about the results.

Mr. Salazar wrote and article proving that the neck should be sized first and then the body die used to produce the lease amount of runout. That's with unturned brass I think. With turned case necks, the order made no difference.
Mike

 

[1shot]

Ok, I’ve been following this thread with more than a casual interest and after nearly 60 posts; I can’t stand it any more and just have to ask one question. Can anyone document to all of us interested in this post that you tested ammo that was sized the “old way” versus whatever method you found to be superior in sizing to lower the total amount of runout and it showed up on the target. I’m referring to either group size at distance or score depending on your particular discipline. I’m really not trying to be a S-A here, but simply trying to determine when is enough, enough. To put it another way, does ammo sized that varies between .000 and .006 runout shoot consistently worse than ammo than an entire lot of ammo that has .0015 runout, at full distance. I ask this because being a sling/prone shooter not a bench rest competitor, how good does the concentricity need to be for my bullet to never leave a 1 MOA “X” ring at 1,000 yds.??
Inquiring minds want to know.
Thanks,
Lloyd

 

[BoydAllen]

Heck, I have tested several types of factory ammo that shot a real measured .5 or under, five shots, using a good rest, from an excellent bench. Obviously the rifle was a good one. I do not have the impression that those who are contemplating different methods of sizing are just trying t stay inside of an inch. If their equipment is good, and the rifle is in tune, I would think that we are talking about one fourth of that. Don't get me wrong, sling shooters can do what I can't, but it seems to me that that game is more about shooter performance. To answer your question directly, I have shot lots of groups that were under a half inch with well tuned loads made with unturned necks, and one piece FL dies with expander balls. Down around a quarter of an inch, and below, consistent gains get a lot harder. One of the problems with these discussions is that some are talking wallet groups, very few shoot over flags, so they really don't have a good measuring stick, and looking at the groups that I have seen on the net, it is a rare one that has been measured accurately.

This particular discussion has run well above the norm, well worth reading....a good group.

 

[matorre]

I have it from an excellent source , that if your ammo runout is over .003, then you will start to notice increase in disprsion in the average gun.

Start the bullet crooked in the bore and you won't get the results you want, unless the type of shooting you are doing includes the term, "beaten zone".

For further consideration there is a long article here for your perusal.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/reloading.html

Regards

Michael

 

[STS]

I can say that there is no doubt in my mind that runout of .004 or .005 is not capable of shooting as well a ammo with .002 or less. The first 6BR that I built acted like it wanted to shoot but was plagued by flyers that ruined what would have been good groups. I isolated the problem to a bad sizing bushing that would not give me low runout ammo. I found another bushing that was straight and that rifle would shoot excellent groups with boring regularity. It does make a difference in a rifle built with enough precision to detect the difference in runout.