Poor Runout with Redding "S" Full Length Size Die

[crewchef]

One thing I've found that helps consistency with the collet die is to hold it in place for something like a 5 count. I set mine up so the press (Rock Chucker) handle is hitting it's stop. Essentially as described in J Valentines instructions which were posted on the Bench Rest forum web site. When it gets there I hold it for count of 5. Seems to minimize spring back differences and that one change helped me get seating depths to really tighten up. You can actually feel a difference when lifting press handle back up. If you don't hold it down at all or for enough time you can feel it sort of unload the tension. If you held it down long enough for the brass to "set" it just lifts up without any sort of spring or rebound type effect.

I reserve right to change my mind at later date but as of today, I think collet die is the only/best neck sizing method for someone who isn't turning their necks.

 

[Innovative]

Boyd & Mike .......

The amount of neck resizing also depends on which rifle we're loading for. My latest tactical .308 rifle has a tight neck chamber with only .0015" diameter clearance. When I use Lapua cases (thicker brass) the neck diameter is only reduced from .338" to .335"

I also use the Redding S-Type dies with rifles that have 3 times that reduction, and I have no problems with run-out.

 

[MVW]

A number of folks wanted an update on what I learned.

1) Neck sizing 0.011 with a bushing die in one pass often adds as much as 0.005 run out at the neck.

2) After full length sizing new brass and running through and expander mandrel in prep for neck turning, the run out can be as much as 0.005 at the neck. I used a Redding Turret press and I am not so sure that it isn't contributing to the problems. Next time I turn some brass I will use my single stage press and see what is causing it.

3) The collet die is AWESOME! I am not sure it reduces run out in all cases, but it sure doesn't add to the problem and with fire formed brass that won't be an issue. One thing that I noticed is that the mandrel measures 0.306. My case neck thickness is approximately 0.013, so to have ~0.002 neck tension I need and OD of ~0.332. I can only seem to get the OD down to 0.335 with the collet die. Given the warnings and the aluminum cap, I don't want to get to agressive here??

4) To take it the necks down an additional 0.003, I used a s-type bushing die with my single stage press and an O-ring under the lock ring. Even that small amount added roughy 0.001 to the run out.

Thanks for all of the suggestions. This is major progress, but the jury is still out on the Turret Press and the bushing dies even for small neck size changes.

 

[BoydAllen]

The way that you get additional neck tension with a collet die is to order a smaller mandrel from Lee, NOT set the die so that you are toggling harder, or leaning on the handle harder, if you are setting up so that there is no toggle. Also, are you sure that you need that much more neck tension? Are your bullets so loose that they can be easily moved in use, or is it a proven accuracy issue? If you rebarrel, I suggest that you might find having your own chamber reamer has some advantages, and if you go that way, measuring brass that has been sized with your die (and dimensioning your reamer accordingly), to produce a superior fit between ammo and chamber can be a very good idea. Also, by paying attention to the neck dimension, you can minimize the amount of reduction that takes place during sizing, and improve fit in that area. There are other issues, but I will save them till you have decided to order a reamer.

 

[MVW]

Thanks Boyd. I am sensitive to the not toggle situation and to not put undo pressure on the handle. I'll see what .335 does and then see if I need a smaller mandrel.

This has been a great learning experience. I look forward to being able to rebarrel for all the reasons that you list, but learning to optimize a factory rifle is probably worth the effort. I just finished reading the small collection of articles on precision reloading and one of the artcles focused on exactly that project.

Mike

 

[Scott Harris]

I've been experiencing runout "larger than desired" with my Redding bushing dies for some time: .003-.005" is too much in my book. After reading for several nights on the strengths of collet dies, I ordered one for each cartridge. So, here is my question. I am using a Dillon 550 progressive press and plan to use the collet die in station 1 and the F/L Bushing Die (minus the bushing) in stage two. I am using the Uniquetek/Whidden floating tool head and will float station 1 and 2. With this setup, it seems I have no choice but to adjust the collet to toggle over at the top of the stroke: gotta use a full stroke for the other stations.

Anyone see any problems with the plan?? The Lee dies should arrive in a day or two.

 

[Clark]

I left the collet neck die on the shelf for years and used the FL "S" die.

Then I did a controlled experiment, and found that the cheap ugly Lee die was much better.

Maybe God wanted me to feel stupid so I would remember it.

 

[BoydAllen]

It may be that a barely felt toggle will not cause a problem, but then again I have no experience with using a collet die with a Dillon. The problem with the very lightest of toggles is that if you have much variation in neck thickness you will end up not toggling on a thin necked case. Let us know how it works.

 

[Scott Harris]

All my necks are 90% turned/cleaned up Lapua Brass. Once in a while, I'll use range pickup brass for 3-gun matches, but, I use a completely difference setup: small-base.

 

[crewchef]

Scot, go back to page 2 and read the directions on setting up the collet die. Mine is set up to cam over and go all the way to the stop. My line of thought was doing it any other way would leave the door open to inconsistent tension based on how hard I did or didn't push on the press handle. It took a few minutes and several adjustments to get it set correctly but not too big a deal. Just go slow with small adjustments.

 

[Jayhawker]

I too have realized the advantage of the collet die after using a Forster bushing bump neck sizing die and getting excessive runout in Lapua brass for my factory .308. I was curious however, if anyone has tried fitting a spacer of appropriate diameter and thickness along with compensating with the amount the die is screwed in in order to produce partially neck sized brass. I saw mention of this in another forum.

 

[amlevin]

Scot, go back to page 2 and read the directions on setting up the collet die. Mine is set up to cam over and go all the way to the stop. My line of thought was doing it any other way would leave the door open to inconsistent tension based on how hard I did or didn't push on the press handle. It took a few minutes and several adjustments to get it set correctly but not too big a deal. Just go slow with small adjustments.

The key to this setup is to go real slow while adjusting the die. If one gets too frisky, the cam over can cause the Collet Sleeve to flare out and seize in the die body. You'll know that this happened because the next case will end up with a collapsed shoulder and join the rest of the scrap in the bucket.

In the instructions that came with my die, they recommended a total of 25 lbs pressure on the press handle.. I find that just pressing until my hand has the same level of pain each time gives me uniform neck tension. After sizing a few cases one can feel the brass yield as it's being forced against the mandrel.

As is always the case, any method that yields good results is acceptable. It's when bad stuff happens that it's "wrong".

 

[Innovative]

When the Lee collet die is adjusted perfectly, it works just fine. However, when you switch to another brand (or a different lot) of brass, the neck thickness is usually different. That changes everything, and the collet die will usually jam up tight against the mandrel.

The Redding S-Type die doesn't have that problem - you just switch the bushing.

 

[Scott Harris]

So, I ran about two hundred case through the collet die on my Dillon 550. I found it quite easy to setup. The key for me was understanding how little pressure it takes to size the brass and how more pressure does nothing but stress the die. I cleaned everything up like Boyd recommended and it works like a champ. There was one glitch. The die did not have enough thread for me to use the die lock ring on top of the press. I had to switch the lock ring to underneath the toolhead and had to use a very small lock ring. But, it seems to work just fine. I'll probably ask my gunsmith if he can extend the threading on the die so I can use conventional lock rings in the future. Oh, measured runout on the loaded rounds average right around .001 with the max runout at .003.....not to bad and a distinct improvement.

 

[Tozguy]

Scot, go back to page 2 and read the directions on setting up the collet die. Mine is set up to cam over and go all the way to the stop. My line of thought was doing it any other way would leave the door open to inconsistent tension based on how hard I did or didn't push on the press handle. It took a few minutes and several adjustments to get it set correctly but not too big a deal. Just go slow with small adjustments.

What's wrong with the set-up instructions that Lee provide's with the collett die?

Once the collett has pressed the brass tight to the mandrel, any additional pressure beyond that point is not going to 'add tension'.

Remember that we are working brass, if brass is soft enough to dent from hitting the action during ejection then how much force should we expect to use to squeeze the neck a few thou.? In a properly lubricated collett die = surprisingly little compared to FL sizing.

 

[crewchef]

What's wrong with the set-up instructions that Lee provide's with the collett die?

Once the collett has pressed the brass tight to the mandrel, any additional pressure beyond that point is not going to 'add tension'.

Remember that we are working brass, if brass is soft enough to dent from hitting the action during ejection then how much force should we expect to use to squeeze the neck a few thou.? In a properly lubricated collett die = surprisingly little compared to FL sizing.
[/quote]

It's not that I'm setting it up to press any harder, just going for consistent level of pressure. This way I'm not guessing at the lbs of pressure I'm using just letting the press do the work.

Someone else mentioned having to set it up again with new brass. I check when I get a new lot of cases. This last time I got a new lot I ended up turning the die less than 1/8th of a turn to get the same feel/measurement.

 

[STS]

This thread has migrated towards the LEE die which is kind of a normal thing to do when looking for a solution to a problem. I would like to throw out a potential solution for the original problem with the Redding die. I have found many bushings (both Wilson and Redding) that the simple fact of the matter is the hole is not straight through the bushing. I have thrown away MANY bushings over the years because they are not usable and will not size cases straight. If you have a tubing micrometer you can easily check the bushings wall thickness in 8 places (4 on one end of the bushing and 4 on the other end) and if the wall thicknesses are not the same the bushings can't possibly size correctly. Wilson bushings have a .0005 taper so the measurements from end to end will be different but when measuring on one end the wall thichnesses should be the same. Does the OP have a way to accurately measure this? Believe it or not this bushing issue is actually pretty common. Hopefully this will help shed some light on the subject.

 

[BoydAllen]

If you are in a situation where the amount of reduction, from fired to sized makes sense for a bushing, paying the higher tariff for a carbide bushing, if they are available in the size that you need, may be worth the extra investment. Like the previous poster, I have checked steel (both coated and uncoated) bushings, and found the same irregularities. My carbide bushing measures to the same ten thousandth all the way around. I believe that the difference is that carbide bushings are ground to size. Another way around this problem, once the proper die neck ID is determined, principally for turned necks, is to order a custom, one piece, FL die from Hornady. Body dimensions of the sized case can be specified, and you can work it out so that if you use the expander ball, you have .001 less neck tension than if you do not, allowing some neck tension options without any degradation of concentricity or stretching. A friend has done this for his .22-250 and .223, with very good results. A properly dimensioned one piece FL die is as good as it gets. It just takes a little more planning.

 

[Innovative]

BoydAllen .......... +1

 

[mikecr]

A properly dimensioned one piece FL die is as good as it gets.

By this I take it such a die does not size the entire length of the neck, but a predetermined for tune length.