Poor grouping

[Tnfiremedic]

Hey folks, maybe this is a dumb question. So I’m pretty new to rifle reloading, have been loading pistol for a few years. I’ve been shooting Federal gold medal match through a bergara 308, which gives me a legit submoa 5 shot grouping. I’m getting tired of paying the price for the FGMM so I stared loading for it. I’ve loaded 100 rounds using Ramshot tac 43 grains, Hornady 168 eldm, trimmed brass to 2.005. At 100 yards I’m getting an average velocity of right at 2450, but my issue is the grouping. I understand that I’ll have a POI shift, in this case it’s low and to the left; but my grouping for five shots has increased to 2.5-3 moa with this load. Being new to the rifle world, what part of my recipe should I start tweaking to fix this?

 

[TerryPohl]

Not trying to be smart are mean but you should not loaded 100 rounds to find out it won’t shoot them. The gun may not like a number of things in this load , the bullet, the powder it self, seating depth, are the bullet depth in the case. I always start with one load only 5 rounds and change only one thing at a time during load development. But to answer your questions, at this point is pull all bullets and start over are you may get lucky and just tinker with the seating depth of the bullet.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I don't see Hornady 168 eldm in any factory Fed match ammo. 1. So you changed bullets, Fed probably isn't using Tac powder, 2. so likely a powder change . 3. Velocity of factory rds out of your rifle? Different than handloads(likely). 4. Are you even using the fired brass/Fed primers?
I think you have a bit of work to duplicate the fed match ammo.

 

[Gary in MD]

How did you establish your seating depth?
TAC is probably ok but I would go with either IMR 4064 or Varget if you could get those.
Edit to add
Never load 100 until you have a proven load. Try 3 shot groups until you see something that shows promise.

 

[Bill Norris]

Hey folks, maybe this is a dumb question. So I’m pretty new to rifle reloading, have been loading pistol for a few years. I’ve been shooting Federal gold medal match through a bergara 308, which gives me a legit submoa 5 shot grouping. I’m getting tired of paying the price for the FGMM so I stared loading for it. I’ve loaded 100 rounds using Ramshot tac 43 grains, Hornady 168 eldm, trimmed brass to 2.005. At 100 yards I’m getting an average velocity of right at 2450, but my issue is the grouping. I understand that I’ll have a POI shift, in this case it’s low and to the left; but my grouping for five shots has increased to 2.5-3 moa with this load. Being new to the rifle world, what part of my recipe should I start tweaking to fix this?

Very difficult to just load up 100 rds. exactly the same and try to figure out what the rifle wants to shoot. Need to test powder charge increments, seat depth increments, and possibly neck tension (bushings) to find out where the barrel will be happy.

 

[dryhumor]

No dumb questions here….

The more you learn, the more you realize that there is still more to learn.

 

[450BM]

I’ve been reloading for about 48 years now. I’m still surprised by how different a rifle can shoot by changing powder charges or powder. Not to mention bullets! But generally speaking, a decent quality bullet can be made to shoot in about anything, just need to find the velocity that works well with the twist rate you have and of course is needs to have enough velocity…. Maybe, at 2450, that bullet isn’t spinning fast enough to be accurate so I’d be looking to increase velocity or switch to a shorter bullet.

If I were doing this, as I like to experiment, I’d pull the ballistic tips on 3 rounds and see if it makes a difference. It may shorten the bullet enough to stabilize it better and make it more accurate. I did this a lot trying to find a load for a 22 TCM with an idiotic slow twist of 1/16. It helped but ultimately I think it was a crap rifle that needed to go down the road. Luckily it wasn’t mine and I was doing this for a buddy…. Hornady tips are easy to pull, grab them with needle nose pliers and twist then pull. They should come right out.

Otherwise, it’s a little work but I’d start pulling bullets. Then I’d reload with varying powder weights in batches of 3. With the groups of 3 you like, load some batches of 5 and test again. I start with 3 because if I have a bad group with 3 rounds, 2 more ain’t gonna make it any smaller. If this doesn’t work, change powder and repeat.

 

[DHD]

Oh boy.

Don't take any seemingly sarcastic replies as people being mean. That out of the way, maybe next time ask the question first and the experience on this Site would help you get into the ballpark first.

Do you have a bullet puller? If you do, get busy, if you don't have one yet, get one as they are handy for when you do not like a certain load (hint, hint).

Coyotefur made a very good point. If you are trying to duplicate FGMM, then start with Sierra bullets, Federal 210 primers (Match if you gottem), and your seating depth should match the Match. Roughly that on bullets, primers, and seating depth. As to the powder, that is a good question, but I am positive it has been asked 1007 times so good guesses or flat out truth is out there.

IMO, 2450 fps is not what I remember FGMM shooting, but I used 24" barrels when I was shooting cases of the stuff. 2650 fps is what my now older mind remembers.

Varget, Re15, 4064, 2520, my thumbs will get tired typing the workable powders. TAC would not have even entered my thoughts as it never does. I understand if that is all you have, but research your target, so to speak, and buy what is suggested.

I am not really a hater on Hornady bullets, but other than certain Hornady offerings, I tend to ignore them. A Sierra 175 grain SMK is always a good place to start a test.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Hey folks, maybe this is a dumb question. So I’m pretty new to rifle reloading, have been loading pistol for a few years. I’ve been shooting Federal gold medal match through a bergara 308, which gives me a legit submoa 5 shot grouping. I’m getting tired of paying the price for the FGMM so I stared loading for it. I’ve loaded 100 rounds using Ramshot tac 43 grains, Hornady 168 eldm, trimmed brass to 2.005. At 100 yards I’m getting an average velocity of right at 2450, but my issue is the grouping. I understand that I’ll have a POI shift, in this case it’s low and to the left; but my grouping for five shots has increased to 2.5-3 moa with this load. Being new to the rifle world, what part of my recipe should I start tweaking to fix this?

A lot of good good previous comments, I'll add my little POV on it:

I assume your Bergara .308 has a 20" barrel? It's a very nice rifle and you should be able to get easily way better than 2.5-3 MOA with your hand loads, with ease.

First, I think you chose a bullet that really hard to get good results outs of, especially if you happen to be loading them to a COAL of 2.800. IMHO, Ramshot TAC is not the best powder to use, but shouldn't be responsible for that kind of variance . . . unless your scale is not very consistent.

I assume you're reloading Federal brass, and that's just fine. . . not the best, but not bad either. I've reloaded Federal brass a lot and got better results than factory FGMM cartridges. The cases can use some fine tuning, but that's a discussion for another day, until you get the main problem out of the way where your sub .75 MOA.

I'd suggest trying a different bullet and a different powder. Like, for now at least, you might go to a 168 or 169 SMK using IMR-4064. I'd say this would be an easy button to get results that you seem to be expecting.

 

[lgwatson]

Hey folks, maybe this is a dumb question. So I’m pretty new to rifle reloading, have been loading pistol for a few years. I’ve been shooting Federal gold medal match through a bergara 308, which gives me a legit submoa 5 shot grouping. I’m getting tired of paying the price for the FGMM so I stared loading for it. I’ve loaded 100 rounds using Ramshot tac 43 grains, Hornady 168 eldm, trimmed brass to 2.005. At 100 yards I’m getting an average velocity of right at 2450, but my issue is the grouping. I understand that I’ll have a POI shift, in this case it’s low and to the left; but my grouping for five shots has increased to 2.5-3 moa with this load. Being new to the rifle world, what part of my recipe should I start tweaking to fix this?

I agree with the guys that have answered you. I would also like to add what I have learned from the guys on this site.

Check your reloading manual for a middle of the road powder load with a powder recommended by the manual. I use a Sinclair tool to measure the distance from the bolt face to the lands. Hornady also makes a tool for that. Once I have that information, I experiment with bullet seating depths. I usually start at .005 to .010 from the point the bullet contacts or slightly jams into the lands, and increase the distance from the lands in .005 increments, loading three at each length. Four or five groups of three. Shoot those and one group of three will usually group the best. After finding a good length (BTO) I use different amounts of powder .2 to 05 grain increments and look for the best group. Some people reverse this process.

The are numerous articles and and posts on this website with excellent information on load development on this site. There is a lot of experience, knowledge and good people willing to share. Good luck, and welcome to a hobby that has addictive qualities.

 

[mgunderson]

Got any of your factory ammo left. Try a little seating depth test. 308s will have a seating depth node about every 0.035 of an inch or so from the lands. With it shooting that way. I expect you are more that a few thousands from the node. Try 3 shots a 0.010 deeper and 3 at 0.015 deeper. What scope are you using?

 

[ebb]

Dan Newberry explains it in the video.

 

[jelenko]

grouping for five shots has increased to 2.5-3 moa

FWIW, using Hornady bullets isn't the difference between 1/2 MOA and 2.5-3 MOA.

 

[Bronsin]

Fortunately, you have chosen one of the easiest cartridges to get shooting well. The Match ammo you have been using is loaded with either a 168gr or 175gr Sierra Matchking. I would suggest uses one of those along with Federal primers. With either bullet, 41.5grs of IMR4064 works excellent, and with the 175gr you can use 43.5grs of Varget. Loaded to an O.A.L. of 2.800, this will get you as close to duplicating the load your rifle already likes, and you can tweak the powder and seating depth later.

 

[jpjulian]

Try some IMR4064, IMR or H4895, or Varget for powders. Try Sierra 168 or 175 Match Kings and light them off with Federal Gold Medal Large Rifle Primers. The powder charge will be somewhere between 40.0-42.0 grains to obtain close to the velocity the factory Gold Medal Match was out of your rifle. Seat the Match Kings to the same or close to the same base to ogive measurement of the factory loads. Sounds like you have the full length size and trim to length covered. As others said, you changed too much to get similar results to the factory loads. I'm not biased against Hornady's the way some here are but, if you want Gold Medal results, you have to load like a Gold Medal. BTW, I loaded many thousand of Sierra 168's with IMR4895 and GM LR primers in Winchester or Federal cases for Highpower competition for a number of years. It works.

 

[K22]

In my experience, the posts recommending IMR 4064, Varget, and IMR 4895 are spot on. I obtained my best accuracy with these powders.

With the groups you obtained with factory ammo, that rules out anything mechanically wrong with the rifle. That is a huge plus.

Load development with 3 to 5 rounds is also spot on. The 308 is one the easiest cartridge to obtain great accuracy if you have a mechanically sound rifle / scope.

I would select one the aforementioned powders to test your current supply of bullets. If you do not obtain the results you desire, the first component I would change is the bullet. Change only one thing at time.

I have had outstanding results with Sierra Pro Hunter Bullets (150 - 165 grain) and Nosler BT's (150 - 165 grain) in all 308's I ever owned using the aforementioned powders and Federal 210 Primers.

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

I clicked on here half-expecting to see some of my groups.

 

[charlie b]

At least you know your rifle will shoot, and, that you can shoot it reasonably well.

I had a .308 that did not shoot well until I found out it's quirks. I finally figured out that letting the barrel cool after 5 rounds was important with that rifle. If I shot a 20 round string the group size just kept getting bigger. And, it was kinda picky about bullets. It did like 175SMK's the best but it would also tolerate some others. It did not like 168SMK's. 155 Bergers did well, but, they were very sensitive to seat depth. Had decent luck with 155ELD's but not with the old 168AMax bullets. After all the work put into it, it was still not always consistent. Some days it just would not stay under MOA. Never figured out why.

Long story short, there are a lot of variables and having the wrong ones 'stack up' means miserable groups.

Efficient load work up takes some time and effort, but, the results can be worth it.