• This Forum is for adults 18 years of age or over. By continuing to use this Forum you are confirming that you are 18 or older. No content shall be viewed by any person under 18 in California.

Palma Brass Questions

I am pretty sure that almost everyone in F T/R will disagree with this. Long throated 308s running 45-46 grains of powder behind 200gr bullets with palma brass is very common.

I'd agree with you here. However, as I've already posted, this doesn't necessarily apply to every powder. H4895, 8208 XBR, VarGet, and Viht N150 are four that seem to have no SP-ignition problems in any normal conditions and I've seen a 308 SP load series for N150 and the 155gn bullet of one make or other that broke 50gn and shot one-hole 100 yard test groups with ES values of 5 fps or less. (I don't know how that much was got into the case without pushing the bullet out, but my friend who is a top GB F/TR shooter and former national champion managed it somehow. This was for his wife's rifle - his own wouldn't shoot the combination well at all!)
 
I loaded up several 175smk in these palma cases with a load work up of varget. With cci450 primers the velocity was the same per powder charge as the large rifle primers. I finally got to 44gr of varget where my large primer load is and velocity was 5 fps faster with cci450s. My spread came down from 19fps to 9fps. I definitely need to shoot more of these but things look good so far. Now I also loaded the same load with Remington 7 1/2 primers. I stopped after round 3 due to some heavy cratering of the primer. Now is it pressure? Probably not. Im guessing the firing pin is just wrecking the primer. 10 rounds isnt much though. I have some more shooting to do. I plan on loading some 175gr match burners again. They shoot better than the match kings for me with my current recipes.
 
I loaded up several 175smk in these palma cases with a load work up of varget. With cci450 primers the velocity was the same per powder charge as the large rifle primers. I finally got to 44gr of varget where my large primer load is and velocity was 5 fps faster with cci450s. My spread came down from 19fps to 9fps. I definitely need to shoot more of these but things look good so far. Now I also loaded the same load with Remington 7 1/2 primers. I stopped after round 3 due to some heavy cratering of the primer. Now is it pressure? Probably not. Im guessing the firing pin is just wrecking the primer. 10 rounds isnt much though. I have some more shooting to do. I plan on loading some 175gr match burners again. They shoot better than the match kings for me with my current recipes.
That's interesting. Both of those primers are considered a magnum primer. Perhaps its merely the hardness of the cups, rem being brass and the cci chromed. German Salazar did a primer test years ago on the rifleman's journal blog, the only thing I remember is he said the Remington 7¹/² made a much bigger flame than the other small primers. Perhaps that caused greater pressure.
Is it worth debating? Probably not and if you find a combination that works well, then that's great and there is no need for further testing.
 
Anything over 40.0 grains is too much for small Primers!
38.0 gr is really about max for small primers.
0-38 + small primers
39-65 + large primer
66-+ Mag primer

Hmmm??? My .308 Lapua Palma Brass with CCI400's and CCI450's has worked very well for me with 44.0 gr IMR-4064 pushing 168 SMK's.

I do believe temperature is a factor that needs to reckoned with. If the temperature it quite low, then I'd guess that there'd be some kind of ignition issue with them.
 
Clearly not everyone here is aware that even small rifle primers come in magnum versions. A small rifle primer has plenty of brisance to ignite a .308 Win load (43-45 gr) in Palma brass unless the temps are below 20-25 degrees or so. There are so many other factors that go into ignition...it's not just small versus large rifle primers. Small rifle primers come in magnum versions as mentioned, and there can be a very wide range of brisance between different makes. Some are simply hotter than others. In addition, Lapua .308 Win Palma brass has a 1.5 mm flash hole versus a 2.0 mm flash hole on their standard .308 Win brass, which certainly has an added effect above and beyond the differences between small and large rifle primers themselves. Some brass manufacturers, such as Alpha Munitions, use a 2.0 mm flash hole in their .308 Palma brass. The bottom line is that you need to know exactly what you're working with. That includes the brisance of the primer you're using, the flash hole diameter of the case, the type of powder (i.e. ball versus extruded), etc.

Someone wishing to use .308 Win Palma brass in temps where ignition may be an issue should consider using a magnum primer such as a CCI 450, or some other type of primer such as a Rem 7 1/2, which is known to be a relatively hot primer. Using a brand of brass such as Alpha, which has the larger flash hole might be beneficial. Avoiding the use of ball powders, which have a reputation of being more difficult to ignite would also be recommended. Finally, if the intention is to use such a load in cold temps where ignition might be problematic, it would be very wise to do some testing at the practice range under similar temperature conditions to be sure the chosen combination was actually capable of reliable ignition.
 
I have tried this excellent brass in a .243, it won't reliably light the slower burning powders.
But it does improve as you move up to the faster burning powders.
Steve Bair
 
When I used to shoot Palma, I used Winchester Palma brass that had large primers. Still have 100 of them.
 
I had an issue (hangfires) with SRP brass in a 22 Creedmoor using necked down 6mm Peterson brass. I uniformed the flash holes with a .080” cutter and problem disappeared.
 
Steve ,

I Tried 243 SRP with fantastic elevation but it was with full load of N 165 and CCI 450 .

I've found N165 to be a very consistent and easy to ignite powder in several applications. I've yet to try it in a >40gn charge SRP set-up - I'll do so later this year in 6mm SLR / 108 Berger with Peterson 243 Win SP as the base case.

You never know how things will turn out, but I don't expect any problems. (Famous last words!?)
 
Clearly not everyone here is aware that even small rifle primers come in magnum versions. A small rifle primer has plenty of brisance to ignite a .308 Win load (43-45 gr) in Palma brass unless the temps are below 20-25 degrees or so. There are so many other factors that go into ignition...it's not just small versus large rifle primers. Small rifle primers come in magnum versions as mentioned, and there can be a very wide range of brisance between different makes. Some are simply hotter than others. In addition, Lapua .308 Win Palma brass has a 1.5 mm flash hole versus a 2.0 mm flash hole on their standard .308 Win brass, which certainly has an added effect above and beyond the differences between small and large rifle primers themselves. Some brass manufacturers, such as Alpha Munitions, use a 2.0 mm flash hole in their .308 Palma brass. The bottom line is that you need to know exactly what you're working with. That includes the brisance of the primer you're using, the flash hole diameter of the case, the type of powder (i.e. ball versus extruded), etc.

Someone wishing to use .308 Win Palma brass in temps where ignition may be an issue should consider using a magnum primer such as a CCI 450, or some other type of primer such as a Rem 7 1/2, which is known to be a relatively hot primer. Using a brand of brass such as Alpha, which has the larger flash hole might be beneficial. Avoiding the use of ball powders, which have a reputation of being more difficult to ignite would also be recommended. Finally, if the intention is to use such a load in cold temps where ignition might be problematic, it would be very wise to do some testing at the practice range under similar temperature conditions to be sure the chosen combination was actually capable of reliable ignition.
I have been running the Alpha SP brass with N140, Rem 7 1/2 primer and a 200/20x. I have run this combo for the last year including multiple matches that were down in the high 30, low 40 degree range (cold winter this year in TX) and have not experienced any hangfires or misfires. Not sure if it is the larger flash hole of Alpha brass or hot Rem 7 1/2 primer that has prevented any of the issues noted by Laurie. This combo has been as consistent as I could hope for.
 
Not sure if it is the larger flash hole of Alpha brass or hot Rem 7 1/2 primer

Flash-hole diameter has a considerable effect. Back in the days of the Remington 'Competition' brass, also known as UBBR brass, many handloaders couldn't get these cases to perform in their as-sold 308 Win form with the powders and primers of the day, especially in low temperatures. A common 'fix' was to drill the flash-hole out usually to the standard 2mm dia. The downside as in other dedicated match SP numbers like the BRs and PPCs was an increase in ES values.

(For those who are unfamiliar with the UBBR concept, it was very thin-walled SP 308 Win intended to be the base case for reforming into the BR models - Remington didn't make any BR brass or ammunition for many years until the 7mm BR acquired a degree of popularity in single-shot pistols for Silhouette competition and handgun hunting. UBBR = Unformed Basic Bench Rest IIRC.))

These ignition problems were such that when Lapua developed the 'Palma' case some 10 years ago at the request of the US Palma teams who then adopted the type after a year's range and live-match testing, many 'old hands' predicted disaster in posts on the US Rifle Teams' Long Range Forum. on the 'Been there, tried that, it doesn't work' principle.
 
H4895, 8208 XBR, VarGet, and Viht N150 are four that seem to have no SP-ignition problems in any normal conditions and I've seen a 308 SP load series for N150 and the 155gn bullet of one make or other that broke 50gn and shot one-hole 100 yard test groups with ES values of 5 fps or less.
Add IMR4166 to the list. I'm having no ignition issues with GM205M over 43.2gr of 4166
 
Loaded some 168gr loads with cci450 primers and accurate 2520. Hangfires on the 1st and 2nd round I fired and a very low velocity. 2,2xxfps. Definitely done trying the small rifle primers and ball powders in these cases. I will stick with varget or 2495. The ball powders ive tried with SRP are cfe223, blc2, SW tactical rifle and now 2520. All exhibited hangfires. Just sharing some first hand experience to those that may be interested.
 
Two years ago ; at the SWN , Day One , first relay . Temp was 34 degrees F , and wind chill took it down to 26 degrees F . My load was a Berger 185gr OTM , in front of 45.5gr of IMR 4064 . And the Primer was / Is a Rem 7 1/2 BR . Score was a 193 - 4x . Did I mention that wind was W-SW gusting to 15 ? Most TR shooters do load above those rates that many say would be problematic in SRP Palma brass , with no issues , because We have developed those loads over time and testing . Blanket rules don't do good in the shooting sports cause there's always somebody out there doing quite well , while breaking those rules .
 

Upgrades & Donations

This Forum's expenses are primarily paid by member contributions. You can upgrade your Forum membership in seconds. Gold and Silver members get unlimited FREE classifieds for one year. Gold members can upload custom avatars.


Click Upgrade Membership Button ABOVE to get Gold or Silver Status.

You can also donate any amount, large or small, with the button below. Include your Forum Name in the PayPal Notes field.


To DONATE by CHECK, or make a recurring donation, CLICK HERE to learn how.

Forum statistics

Threads
165,795
Messages
2,203,584
Members
79,130
Latest member
Jsawyer09
Back
Top