I just bought some Lapua 308 Palma brass due to necessity over preference. I am almost out of large rifle primers but have plenty of small rifle primers to keep me going for a long time. I have a common 308 winchester load using 44 grains of varget with a 175gr sierra match king. This load using a cci 200 gives me an average velocity of 2500fps and a 19fps spread with a 20" barreled Weatherby Vanguard. This load shoots excellent. My question is where do I start after switching to small primers? Do I need to do a full load work up again or is it as simple as using all my same data? I have cci 450, remington 7 1/2, cci 400, winchester small rifle and Federal AR match primers. Is there any preference on primer out of what I have? Thanks for the help.
Palma Brass Questions
- Thread starter LiveFire
- Start date
STOMP442
Gold $$ Contributor
I would switch to the CCI 450 from the get go to avoid the potential of piercing primers with your large firing pin or, get your bolt bushed and shoot whatever primer you want. My only experience with small primer brass is with the 6XC and 6.5 Creed. When working up a load using the 450s I ended up at exactly the same place powder charge wise for my accuracy nodes. When ever I change anything though I always back off a bit and work up just to be safe.
LVLAaron
Gold $$ Contributor
CFE223 and TAC are common 223/556 powders? They work fine with small primers.
It can be. I had near 100% hangfires and occasional misfires with CFE-223 in Palma brass and Italian Fiocchi primers with two bullet weights. Some ES values were in three figures - a classic sign of inadequate ignition. Another primer might have worked apparently OK, but even so, I imagine it would have been marginal at best.
It's not necessarily a problem with all ball grades. I once tried H414 in a chilly winter's day in Palma brass with the CCI-BR4 and it gave better results (slightly higher MVs / smaller ES values and groups) than accompanying benchmark LR Lapua brass and BR2 primers with identical loads in the same range session. Not at all what I had expected!
Yes but with 25-28gn charge weights. Problems arise with SP brass when charges exceed 40gn, even more so 45gn. There are opinions that the 6.5X47 Lapua is as large as SP ignition can reliably handle. I wouldn't necessarily agree, but in 308 and similar cartridges this form can become powder-sensitive and also affected by low ambient temperatures.
I should of clarified in palma cases specifically. I use them with good success in my ar15's.
The standby load used by palma shooters with a 155 is 46 of varget with a large primer and 46.5 of varget with a small primer.
With lake city 308, drop 2 grains just like all the books say to. All three of these loads work very well at 1000 yards in a palma rifle.
With the 308, the science is settled and trying to find new loads(if you are not stuck with only using non traditional powders) is not worth it.
I do like a hot primer like a remington 7 ¹/², there is plenty of flame for ignition and the cups are hard and will not pierce as easily. With fed 205m I have had a few misfires with 46.5 of varget. Never an issue with the 7 ¹/². Cci 450 gets good reviews too and they are out there.
If your load shoots excellent and you're happy with the results, I would leave it alone and spend your time elsewhere. One final issue with the palma brass, you will need a smaller decapping pin than standard.
With lake city 308, drop 2 grains just like all the books say to. All three of these loads work very well at 1000 yards in a palma rifle.
With the 308, the science is settled and trying to find new loads(if you are not stuck with only using non traditional powders) is not worth it.
I do like a hot primer like a remington 7 ¹/², there is plenty of flame for ignition and the cups are hard and will not pierce as easily. With fed 205m I have had a few misfires with 46.5 of varget. Never an issue with the 7 ¹/². Cci 450 gets good reviews too and they are out there.
If your load shoots excellent and you're happy with the results, I would leave it alone and spend your time elsewhere. One final issue with the palma brass, you will need a smaller decapping pin than standard.
Ya the particular loading I am using now is satisfactory for my needs. This is a sporter barrel in a aluminum bedded block hogue overmold stock with a Leupold vx freedom 3-9x40 tri moa reticle. I dont compete or anything with is. Just a decently accurate rifle I and my wife shoot in the back 40. I believe the pin I will need is .058-.060" of an inch right? I have thousands of cci450 and remington 7 1/2. I will try bother. If it werent for the lack of local availability of large rifle primers I would not even be using the Palma brass. Im just unwilling to pay local prices when they show up and I have been missing all the in stock notifications through discord.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I'd be very cautious about making assumptions in this scenario. My Lapua Palma brass generally has anywhere from from about 0.3 gr to 0.7 gr less volume that my standard Lapua .308 Win brass. This is from multiple Lots over a period of several years. When you add in the factor of the different brisance between small rifle and large rifle primers, why not simply play it safe and start out with a sufficiently safe reduced charge weight?
Because you know exactly where the previous load tuned in using standard brass, you could decrease that charge weight by half a grain or so, load a few rounds, then determine velocity with the reduced load in Palma brass. Chances are good you already have velocity data from a similarly reduced load in standard brass from the lower end of your previous load workup. A direct comparison of the velocities will give you a very good idea of where to start out with the new brass without merely guessing. I understand reloading components are in short supply right now, but with only a few loaded rounds and a single trip to the range, you will have far better information to safely begin the load development with the new component(s).
Because you know exactly where the previous load tuned in using standard brass, you could decrease that charge weight by half a grain or so, load a few rounds, then determine velocity with the reduced load in Palma brass. Chances are good you already have velocity data from a similarly reduced load in standard brass from the lower end of your previous load workup. A direct comparison of the velocities will give you a very good idea of where to start out with the new brass without merely guessing. I understand reloading components are in short supply right now, but with only a few loaded rounds and a single trip to the range, you will have far better information to safely begin the load development with the new component(s).
Interesting what you have found, and very solid advice to always start low and work back up to where you want to be.
Ned Ludd
Silver $$ Contributor
I really have no idea what the general Lot-to-Lot case volume variance of Lapua .308 Win brass is. I have purchased several Lots of 1000 cases (each) of both the Standard and Palma brass over the last few years, and my fired case volumes average in the 55.7-55.9 gr range for Palma brass, and 56.5 to 56.7 gr for Standard brass as fired out of chambers cut with the same reamer. I can easily imagine this could result from Lot-to-Lot variation, or firing brass from tighter/looser cut chambers, and someone else might have the opposite result with the two brass types. Nonetheless, I have always found it fairly painless to load up a few rounds at a slightly reduced charge weight, determine actual velocity and case volumes, then proceed from that point. Lapua Palma brass is pretty stout, so I doubt running half to three quarters of a grain higher charge weight than is optimal for a tuned load would represent a significant safety issue. But IMO it's always a good practice to err on the side of caution.
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In the last 3 years I have fired 8650 rounds of 6mm Creed and 6.5 Creed all with small primers.
I live in the North East and I shoot all year long from the cold teens to the hot nineties and have
never had a issue with ignition.
I believe that what you say is true, but many of us who use lapua palma brass for palma or f-tr have had misfires with small primers in 308s. Apparently the 308 is different enough from the creedmoor to be different.
What powder and primers are you using? All my loads have used CCi450 primers H4350, IMR4451 and IMR4831.
Fed 205m with varget. I've not had problems with rem 7¹/²s with n160 in 6xc cases. Again, like I said the difference in cases is just enough to cause problems in 308 that don't arise in others and the cci 450s probably can't hurt.
Yes, but others have. Even at Creedmoor case size, some powder/ primer combinations can start to be marginal; the increase to 308 makes this state more so. How are your ES/SD values? SP brass should reduce them, but sometimes you find they're larger than in equivalent LR primer brass, a sign that the small primer is only just doing the job.
I've been running 7mm-08 with necked-down, fully prepped 308 Palma brass for a few years with a case-full of Viht N160. I was intrigued to find much smaller MV spreads on trying standard Lapua LP brass straight out of the box. In fact, the large primer version generally worked so much better that I'm switching back to it and accepting the loss of 80 or so fps MV through reducing loads for the weaker case.
The new Viht N555 was even more interesting. Having got promising results and some good ES figures with LR cases, everything bar MVs went badly downhill on switching to the small variety. It's not the first time I've seen powders from the same factory behave very differently with the ignition switch. Back when 308 Palma brass first appeared and there were temperature related concerns, I did a chilly weather (just above freezing) side by side test in 308 between small and large primer versions with four or five powders. Much to my surprise, Viht N150 did very well in SP cases, but its apparently similar stablemate N140 saw poor performance. Trying the SP N140 combination later in the year in temperatures in the high 50s restored ES and group size values to what was expected from a combination that has been a staple of British competition shooting for a generation in large primer brass. Viht N150 seems to ignite well enough in all conditions and performs very well in 308 F/TR loads with the small primer brass and has become the UK competition norm.
The Hodgdon powders you mention are no longer available in the UK or European markets incidentally, new regulations having barred them (and all other Australian manufactured 'Extreme' grades plus all non Enduron IMRs) as environmental and health hazards.
10XSHOOTER
Gold $$ Contributor
Anything over 40.0 grains is too much for small Primers!
38.0 gr is really about max for small primers.
0-38 + small primers
39-65 + large primer
66-+ Mag primer
38.0 gr is really about max for small primers.
0-38 + small primers
39-65 + large primer
66-+ Mag primer
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