PAC NOR featherweight model 70 fliers

[INTJ]

These figures are for wind deflection in a 10 mph cross wind at 100 yds.:

- 6mm 68 gr. F.B. BR bullet .280 B.C. @ 3,200 fps (avg. 6PPC load) : .73 inches
-.308 118 gr. FB BR bullet .320 B.C. @ 2,950 fps (avg. 30BR load) : .84 inches
-.308 168 gr. Berger Classic Hunter .489 B.C. @ 2,600 fps (Markg308's load) : .74 inches

Some ballistic truths to ponder, for those so inclined.

Good shootin' -Al

I came up with .7 for a 168 Berger at 2800 at my elevation. But let's ponder more.......

Like I said earlier, the only way you get .7 to .8 to show up in your group is if you are clueless enough to shoot through a 10 MPH gust that is 90 degrees to the line of fire. That means while you shoot your group the wind changes by a full 10 MPH (from 90 degrees no less).

Who does that? A 10 MPH wind change is very noticeable even without flags.

More likely the wind is changing by 2-3 MPH from something less that 90 degrees. Like @jelenko says, that causes about .2" of drift at 100 yds.

When a guy ask why his rifle is shooting 1.2" at 100 yd when he thinks it should shoot .5, the wind is NOT the reason. If he is shooting .6 and he things it should shoot .4, then it very well could be the wind.

 

[ronsatspokane]

Only by exceeding a 90 degree 10 MPH gust, and what idiot works up loads in those conditions and ignores the gusts?

Wind flags won't fix the OPs issue......

I have never done that... TMSAISTI

P.S. did just pick up a Winchester 70 Featherweight in 300 WSM. They had to pay taxes on inventory at North 40 and wanted it gone before tax day. Didn't need it but too good of a deal to pass up. Won't be able to shoot it until mid January but I am excited to try it out. Hopefully I'm man enough to take the beating.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I came up with .7 for a 168 Berger at 2800 at my elevation. But let's ponder more.......

Like I said earlier, the only way you get .7 to .8 to show up in your group is if you are clueless enough to shoot through a 10 MPH gust that is 90 degrees to the line of fire. That means while you shoot your group the wind changes by a full 10 MPH (from 90 degrees no less).

Who does that? A 10 MPH wind change is very noticeable even without flags.

More likely the wind is changing by 2-3 MPH from something less that 90 degrees. Like @jelenko says, that causes about .2" of drift at 100 yds.

When a guy ask why his rifle is shooting 1.2" at 100 yd when he thinks it should shoot .5, the wind is NOT the reason. If he is shooting .6 and he things it should shoot .4, then it very well could be the wind.

Without wind flags we will never know. Remember those figures above double for a reverse, and believe me i have seen the wind do a reversal while i was shooting.

 

[AlNyhus]

I came up with .7 for a 168 Berger at 2800 at my elevation.

His data shows an average of 2,600 so that's what was used.

Like I said earlier, the only way you get .7 to .8 to show up in your group is if you are clueless enough to shoot through a 10 MPH gust that is 90 degrees to the line of fire. That means while you shoot your group the wind changes by a full 10 MPH (from 90 degrees no less).

Respectfully, the point of the deflection comparison of the three examples is clearly missed.

In the spirit of the season, I'll leave it at that.

Good shootin' -Al

 

[INTJ]

Without wind flags we will never know. Remember those figures above double for a reverse, and believe me i have seen the wind do a reversal while i was shooting.

Not true. With trees and brush on either side of a range it's easy to see what the wind is doing. I have shot hundreds of sub 1/2 MOA groups from hunting rifles at many such ranges over the years.

Now when it comes to LR BR competition at 1000 yds it's a different thing. But for short range load development for hunting rifles, what's between your ears is more important than what your wind indicator is....

 

[INTJ]

His data shows an average of 2,600 so that's what was used.

Respectfully, the point of the deflection comparison of the three examples is clearly missed.

In the spirit of the season, I'll leave it at that.

Good shootin' -Al

Well I agree that the point has been missed, but that's okay. We all have our quirks.

 

[LAH]

If my FW Winchester shot that well I would be very happy. Your make me envious.

 

[AlNyhus]

I'm going to circle back around and close the loop on this before calling it good.

How's that for 'corporate-speak' ? Hopefully, this disclaimer will keep the thin skinned and soft & smooth types from lobbing bricks my way on Christmas.

Again, this is meant to be helpful and not harsh to anyone. Here we go.....take a deep breath!

This day, conditions were pretty average for our range...11-15 mph winds but reasonably decent to navigate by watching the flags and tails. I had one flag out at 10 yards and another at 70 yards. This has shown to give me the most reliable info on this range. That's important because each range has it's own personality. Some of the most miserable ranges to pick through conditions are the ones that don't look like it would be a problem! Anyone that has done any traveling knows what I'm talking about.

Anyway, this is a 5 shot group with my 22BR Atlas. Hitting the flags well, this is pretty representative for the gun....mid-high .1's and very small .2's. Both flags were directionally identical as were the flag tails:

I always like to test the push and reversal just as an indicator of what's out there. It's important to remember that just because we have flags out...that doesn't mean we see everything that's going on out there! There's a lot of subtle and not so subtle stuff that we just can't see. That's why a lot of experienced BR shooters choose to shoot a 'push' rather than a 'letup'...the 'push' tends to stabilize the stuff we can't 'see' on the flags.

This was shot on the same day with the same load.....intentionally ignoring the wind speed changes and the difference in flag direction. Clearly, there is more horizontal change than a 4 mph. wind speed change should show when you do the deflection math. That's because the flag angles also changed relative to each other. This gives exactly what Dusty referred to....the reverse will double the value of the push!

Actually, a reverse will almost always more than double the value of the wind speed push....that's because when a flag does a reverse...that's not the only thing that's changed out there!

And that's what you see here. Again...same day, same gun, same load and shot within 10 minutes of the 5 shot group above. This was the total condition out there, that day. As a side benefit, you can see that load is very stable with minimal vertical on target. Again, a nice double check.

If there's a more graphic representation of what flags will do for you...I'm at a loss to produce it.

Experienced shooters already know this. Savvy types that want to learn will connect the dots quickly and progress. Others will continue to waste components and time trying to stumble on some 'pet load' that might work one day and not the next.

Wishing everyone a blessed Christmas and enjoyable times with family and friends. -Al

"Those refusing to follow the prescription for accuracy will remain ailing riflemen" -Norman E. Johnson

 

[mmcu]

Anyway, this is a 5 shot group with my 22BR Atlas. Hitting the flags well, this is pretty representative for the gun....mid-high .1's and very small .2's. Both flags were directionally identical as were the flag tails:

I know that it can't be because of the date on your target, but that smiley face looks like the one's that Michelle Sutton (Hart) would put on a good target that she measured.

That brings back some memories...

 

[INTJ]

I'm going to circle back around and close the loop on this before calling it good.

How's that for 'corporate-speak' ? Hopefully, this disclaimer will keep the thin skinned and soft & smooth types from lobbing bricks my way on Christmas.

Again, this is meant to be helpful and not harsh to anyone. Here we go.....take a deep breath!

This day, conditions were pretty average for our range...11-15 mph winds but reasonably decent to navigate by watching the flags and tails. I had one flag out at 10 yards and another at 70 yards. This has shown to give me the most reliable info on this range. That's important because each range has it's own personality. Some of the most miserable ranges to pick through conditions are the ones that don't look like it would be a problem! Anyone that has done any traveling knows what I'm talking about.

Anyway, this is a 5 shot group with my 22BR Atlas. Hitting the flags well, this is pretty representative for the gun....mid-high .1's and very small .2's. Both flags were directionally identical as were the flag tails:

I always like to test the push and reversal just as an indicator of what's out there. It's important to remember that just because we have flags out...that doesn't mean we see everything that's going on out there! There's a lot of subtle and not so subtle stuff that we just can't see. That's why a lot of experienced BR shooters choose to shoot a 'push' rather than a 'letup'...the 'push' tends to stabilize the stuff we can't 'see' on the flags.

This was shot on the same day with the same load.....intentionally ignoring the wind speed changes and the difference in flag direction. Clearly, there is more horizontal change than a 4 mph. wind speed change should show when you do the deflection math. That's because the flag angles also changed relative to each other. This gives exactly what Dusty referred to....the reverse will double the value of the push!

Actually, a reverse will almost always more than double the value of the wind speed push....that's because when a flag does a reverse...that's not the only thing that's changed out there!

And that's what you see here. Again...same day, same gun, same load and shot within 10 minutes of the 5 shot group above. This was the total condition out there, that day. As a side benefit, you can see that load is very stable with minimal vertical on target. Again, a nice double check.

If there's a more graphic representation of what flags will do for you...I'm at a loss to produce it.

Experienced shooters already know this. Savvy types that want to learn will connect the dots quickly and progress. Others will continue to waste components and time trying to stumble on some 'pet load' that might work one day and not the next.

Wishing everyone a blessed Christmas and enjoyable times with family and friends. -Al

"Those refusing to follow the prescription for accuracy will remain ailing riflemen" -Norman E. Johnson

I don't know, I seem to do all right. That's 3.855 and 4.33 at 1000 yds on consecutive days. And all the wind flags did for me was show the condition was relatively similar to what I saw in the sighter period.



Regardless of all this minimally helpful BR stuff, wind flags are not going to fix the OPs issues with his featherweight barrel.....

 

[Markg308]

Well made it to the range today and shot (2) 3 shot groups at 100,200, and 300 yards. Waited 3-4 min between shots and 10-15 between groups. I’m goin to say the top left flier at 300 was probably the wind or me although it did feel like a good shot. I took my time with these groups and did everything as consistently as I could and all shots felt good.

 

[Markg308]

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I wish youd shoot some groups without waiting between shots. Those conditions are killing you

 

[INTJ]

I agree with Dusty. You should run your shots quickly, then let the barrel cool.

 

[Markg308]

Well here is an ocw with varget I tried. I also noticed on the bottom flat of the action by front screw the bottom edge was somewhat rolled over and pushed out the sides I’m guessing from whatever they bolted the action to when they torqued the barrel off and it slighty mashed the edges just enough to where a fingernail would catch it and I bedded the stock before sending off for new barrel. I filled that edge of the action back smooth and touched it up with a blueing pen.

 

[Nealm66]

If it were me I’d revisit #6 and ladder up/down .1,@ 5 shot groups . Looks like you pulled one or bad squeeze

 

[mmcu]

As this is a hunting rifle, I'd load up a dozen at 44.6 and shoot 4 x 3 shot groups to confirm the load.

If it looks good, call it a day and go put some meat in the freezer.

 

[INTJ]

If this was my rifle, I would load up 45 grains which is between #7s .50 and #8s .80 and go hunting. I don't think that the .50 load will repeat with a .50. I think this is a sub-moa barrel at best.

I don't think you pulled #6 if you were shooting off a bench and the crosshairs were steady when you pulled the trigger.

 

[old_heli_logger]

How is your es? Are you shooting over a chrony? Typically, vertical is combustion and horizontal is wind...
Good luck!

 

[Markg308]

Here is a seating depth test I did at 44.4. From .010” off to .060” off in ten thousandths increments. I ordered some 155 Berger hunting vlds to try also.