P Dog 1st hunt need help on what to bring

[BobbyJ]

I have been a PD shooter for many decades and in my experience here is my recommendation

KISS principle - Keep it simple, stupid (KISS) is a design principle which states that designs and/or systems should be as simple as possible. Wherever possible, complexity should be avoided in a system—as simplicity guarantees the greatest levels of user acceptance and interaction.

I like the KISS philosophy!

Bullet - 40 grain Nosler BT or Hornady V-Max.
Reason - Both give excellent accuracy and good explosive effect and when loaded to around 3700 fps the drop/drift mirrors a 22/250 with a 50 gr bullet without the added recoil and barrel heat.

Can I get 3700 fps from a 223 with 40s? I was just looking at the 53gr due to the high BC 2.90 the 40s only 2.00. The 40s might be more explosive inside 200 but 53s look to extend the range a little at least on my Ballistic calcs.

Sight your rifle 1" or 1-1/2" high at 100 yards and you can hold on the PD all the way out to 300 yds

Thats close to what there are at now. I did 200 yards which is around 1.25" high at 100.

Scope - I would use the Bushnell Elite 6-24
Reason - good optic quality that it is less tiring to your eyes
Reason 2- the 6-24 gives the option of increasing/decreasing magnification as needed due to mirage

Yea the old Japan elites are better than any of the new ones in terms of WOW. Way better than my SWFS scopes. Not knocking SWFS they are great for the money and built like tanks.

Amount of ammo - at least 1000 rounds of 223 since you will find that a 400 round day is a pretty big day in a PD town. Depending on the town you may find yourself quite a while between shots or having to move to go to another town which can use up more of your time than you think

Yea this I have no idea on so I will choose to err on having too much ammo.

17 WSM - it may get some shooting time depending on the town and how much it has been shot and also whether it is windy but realistically it doesn't cost anymore to shoot your 223 per round and the 223 is a lot more effective. If you drive then one more rifle will not be that much of an issue but if you fly then you have excess baggage and weight charges to deal with

The WSM I think I could hit out to 200 yards but if the dogs are at 300 it will be useless so was thinking of not bothering to bring it. Might be fun for kicks.

 

[drover]

I have never shot 53's but I have shot 50's using Nosler Ballistic Tips and Hornady V-Max but after I discovered how well the 40's perform I never went back to the 50's. If there is any difference in performance within normal shooting range (100 - 300 yards) I have not seen it.

There are numerous powders that will get you safely to 3700 fps with the 40's but the top velocity for the 50/53 is 3000 fps. You can go to JBM ballisltics and run a comparison of the 40, 50 and 53 gr bullet and it will verify that the difference between them in drop/drift and energy at the various yardages (100 - 300) is so slight as to be meaningless. The powder I would avoid is H335 since it sometimes has pressure spikes if left in a hot chamber on a hot day.

I will lilkely be poo-pooed as a sissy but something I have noticed is that over the course of a days shooting of 300 or more rounds I am a lot less tired at the end of the day by using the 40's. I have shot a lot of centerfire competition and one thing I realized early on is that recoil is cumulative.

I am not a fan of the rimfire 17's for PD's, most of time they do not give an instant kill and a great many crawl off to die a lingering death - even a PD doesn't deserve to suffer.

Everyone has their favorite combos and the 40's at 3700 are mine.

drover

 

[AndrewB]

hunting license
Mifi
Laptop
Laptop Charger
Phone charger
Contact lens
ammo
cleaning equipment – rod, jags, brush, solvent, patches
hearing protection
rifles
Ballistic charts
Wind flags
shooting bench
fuzzy bath mat or towel for bench top
rear bag
front rest
Folding chair to sit in when not shooting
range finder
batteries for range finder
binoculars
couple of small towels
bug spray
some tools – pliers, screwdrivers, just in case
sunglasses
sunscreen
wipes for cleaning off your hands
Camera
small cooler for drinks and lunch
water
Pistol with birdshot for snakes
lip balm
Any meds you take
Cpap
eye drops (always very windy)
Avoid wearing white, PD see it and go down
boots, not tennis shoes (better snake protection)
hats
light jacket
light long sleeve shirts

 

[dusterdave173]

VV N133 will get a 40 to 3700 in a 223 --did it yesterday--thing is I was shooting one hole less than half moa at around 3400--the 3700 just did not group that tight--YMMV

 

[mongo chicago]

Over the decades, I have reduced the amount of stuff took. Aside from the normal stuff one may need for a trip;


Long range rifle & ammo (1000 yards to about 700 yards), Mid range rifle & ammo (500 yards + -), 22 Mag rifle & ammo (150 yds. and in), 22 Mag pistol & ammo (for rattlers at your feet), shooting bag, ram rods, shooting table & mat - shooting seat - bench rest & poop bags - water cooler. I also took a range finder & binoculars, but I would probably eliminate one or both if I could still go.

 

[powderbrake]

BobbyJ:
The guns that you have are not really the type needed for PD hunting. I will defer to drovers suggestions, as he seems to have experience with light bullets in 223's.
It looks like you will have to buy something, and 223 is a good round. The higher velocity and recommendations for shooting a little high at 200 work well with the range ability of the 223. Also, as a guy who likes holdovers rather than clicks, you may find the 200 yard zero more comfortable.

I would not worry about the explosive factor on the PD's. Almost any bullet will blow them up at the 200 yard range. I urge you to develop your loads and prove them on the target at the 200 yard range.

I had 2 Rem 700's in 223, (mine and one for my son). I converted one to 22-250 to reach the longer dogs, and it is my backup gun to the custom 6BR that I use now. I have transitioned to longer shots, and I use a heavier bullet, 88 gr in the 6br and 62gr in the 22-250.

I have changed to a lazy hunter, and I tend to shoot at the long range dogs and leave the close ones for a couple of our younger shooters. I range each dog, run the ballistics on it ( Kestrel 5700 with Applied Ballistics on a post with a wind vane), and my scopes have target dots, so every shot is held dead on the dog.

Here is an equipment list that I use when packing my SUV for a PD trip. I check one box when I pull the item from wherever it is stored and put it in the pile to load and check the last box when I place it in the SUV. There are probably some things that you don't need on there, make your own list, it really helps to keep from forgetting something like the ammo for the back up gun. My shooting buddy's list is a little different, he brings the booze and the snacks which we enjoy in the evenings, plus he brings a lot of excess stuff like a coffee grinder and expresso machine.

 

[powderbrake]

This would make a nice PD gun.
https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/mcmillan-a5-rem-700-223.4071918/

 

[Hntnhrd]

I have been taking 20 to 25 guys each summer for the past 5 years here in montana. I run a big game outfitting business and added these summer trips as part of the business. I have seen things that really make me shake my head , but the main point is the guys are having fun and that should be the main objective to your trip. In my opinion ( again my opinion) use your time on a Pdog town to become a better shot. AR type rifles have a purpose and shooting Praire dogs is not one of them. If the are built for accuracy and long range shooting then different story , but the ones I have seen show up on a shoot are not those! Blasting a 30 round clip at one Praire dog in less then a minute does nothing but scare the heck out of the entire town. I had a group this year ruin a spot in 20 minutes that we can usually shoot for half a day or more.
If there are 4 of you then I recommend 2 shooters and the other two to spot. Switch off and on and you will have steady shooting all day . One guy blasting away at 500 yards will just keep the dogs down.
When I do some some shooting I take a 17 hmr. A 223 and 22/250 with a suppressor, a 20 practical and new this year a 20 br. . A 2 gun battery of a 17hmr ( or wsm) and 223 would work just fine on dogs out to 300 yards. 22 lr just doesn’t have the range for most people to get much shooting. A bench that swivels ( I have the big game ones from cables) and a bog pod death grip tripod work well as platforms . It’s supposed to be low stress shooting fun. Keep it simple and enjoy the time on the Praire.

 

[Tommie]

It’s natural to get all worked up about the guns, loads, etc before your first PD trip but you’ll have fun with whatever firearms you bring. The other stuff like clothing and other equipment will have a bigger impact on the fun factor. Once you get a couple poodle trips under your belt you’ll start to figure out what rifle/chambering/scope combination will work best for you.

 

[Randall Hardy]

You have a lot of great information here. I’ll also suggest a 223 bolt gun for your primary. When we started it was all about round count per day. Many, many years later, we set 1 or 2 benches 2 guys spotting 1 guy shooting. Shoot the same number of rounds in 5 days that we used to shoot in one. Still puts a giant smile on our face's. Relax and have a blast. Ps be careful what you start.

 

[sw282]

40s get my vote in 223R, For factory ammo my all-time favourite is 45gr Winchester White Box @3600fps. When l was working 4/10s Monday-Thursday, l used to do 2day Prairie Dog weekend shoots. Fly out Friday. Shoot Sat-Sunday. Fly home Monday. One gun only with 5kg/11pounds ammo. That's about 400rds of Winchester 45gr White Box. My gun was either a Winchester Mod 70 Coyote, 6-18 Leupold. l also use a Cooper 21 Varmint in 222R. w/4.5-14 Leupold. Shooting 222Rem allowed me an extra 50rds of ammo. My spotter scope was an 8x30 Swarovski range finder. Great optic thats no longer made. l retired the 222 after almost running out of ammo. 223s are easier to find locally than 222. l always wear white long sleeve shirt while shooting. l fly out in my shooting clothes. For shooting rests l use a Harris or Mecgar rest up front. Rabbit ears bag for rear. l have never touched a Prairie Dog, l dont go walking in PD towns either. Snakes live in PD towns too

 

[JSH]

I know I bring a fair bit of stuff. Never really thought about it till I saw some of the list.
If you are not totally overwhelmed by now, I am surprised.

 

[redrockranger]

I have been taking 20 to 25 guys each summer for the past 5 years here in montana. I run a big game outfitting business and added these summer trips as part of the business. I have seen things that really make me shake my head , but the main point is the guys are having fun and that should be the main objective to your trip. In my opinion ( again my opinion) use your time on a Pdog town to become a better shot. AR type rifles have a purpose and shooting Praire dogs is not one of them. If the are built for accuracy and long range shooting then different story , but the ones I have seen show up on a shoot are not those! Blasting a 30 round clip at one Praire dog in less then a minute does nothing but scare the heck out of the entire town. I had a group this year ruin a spot in 20 minutes that we can usually shoot for half a day or more.
If there are 4 of you then I recommend 2 shooters and the other two to spot. Switch off and on and you will have steady shooting all day . One guy blasting away at 500 yards will just keep the dogs down.
When I do some some shooting I take a 17 hmr. A 223 and 22/250 with a suppressor, a 20 practical and new this year a 20 br. . A 2 gun battery of a 17hmr ( or wsm) and 223 would work just fine on dogs out to 300 yards. 22 lr just doesn’t have the range for most people to get much shooting. A bench that swivels ( I have the big game ones from cables) and a bog pod death grip tripod work well as platforms . It’s supposed to be low stress shooting fun. Keep it simple and enjoy the time on the Praire.

I know a guide that bans the AR-15 period. He manages the towns for next year. he learned the hard way.

 

[sw282]

I have been taking 20 to 25 guys each summer for the past 5 years here in montana. I run a big game outfitting business and added these summer trips as part of the business. I have seen things that really make me shake my head , but the main point is the guys are having fun and that should be the main objective to your trip. In my opinion ( again my opinion) use your time on a Pdog town to become a better shot. AR type rifles have a purpose and shooting Praire dogs is not one of them. If the are built for accuracy and long range shooting then different story , but the ones I have seen show up on a shoot are not those! Blasting a 30 round clip at one Praire dog in less then a minute does nothing but scare the heck out of the entire town. I had a group this year ruin a spot in 20 minutes that we can usually shoot for half a day or more.
If there are 4 of you then I recommend 2 shooters and the other two to spot. Switch off and on and you will have steady shooting all day . One guy blasting away at 500 yards will just keep the dogs down.
When I do some some shooting I take a 17 hmr. A 223 and 22/250 with a suppressor, a 20 practical and new this year a 20 br. . A 2 gun battery of a 17hmr ( or wsm) and 223 would work just fine on dogs out to 300 yards. 22 lr just doesn’t have the range for most people to get much shooting. A bench that swivels ( I have the big game ones from cables) and a bog pod death grip tripod work well as platforms . It’s supposed to be low stress shooting fun. Keep it simple and enjoy the time on the Praire.

l'm with Hntnhrd on ARs. ln 2021 my lifelong PD buddy and l shot NM. A DR from Pa and his son showed up for a 2 day shoot with their ARs and a Thousand rd case of 223/556 while we were there. They went home disappointed with ZERO ammo and 28 confirmed kills. Their guide was not happy with his $20 tip.

 

[Hntnhrd]

I have another thread on what gun to bring but then started to think I need more than that. I'm in Michigan and have 3 buddies that want to try a PD 2 day shoot someplace. Don't know where or what to bring exactly. I can tell you what we have now.

- Dillon XL 650 with Dillon 223 dies + all the prep stuff wet tumblers etc.
- 3000 rounds of range brass
- 2 pounds (left) of CFE 223
- 1,000 CCI 400s
- 2,000 CCI 450s
- 1,000 Rem 7 1/2
- (would need to buy more primers at like 85.00 box of 1,000)
Current Guns
- Two .17 cal WSMs Maybe 1,000 rounds of 20 gr rimfire ammo
- many 22 Lr rimfires
- one Ruger .204 pencil barrel 1/10 twist (maybe 100 rounds of ammo)
- one .223 bolt with 12x scope
- I have 3 Japan 2010 B Elite 6-24x Varmint scopes
- two SWFA 3-15x Scopes
- 1 SWFA fixed 10x scope
- 2 Argos 6-24x scopes
- 3 16" Colt 6920s only 4x Acogs though.
All the rest of my guns are pistols, military WW2 stuff or big calibers 450 BM, shotguns etc.

I'm going to be buying some new stuff not sure what. Get a 24" upper for the ARs like a 223 or even a 20 practical (i've never heard of one till yesterday) I like the best bang for the buck so I'm not buying a bunch of SAKOs don't even bring those up

I want to sort of keep it simple so was thinking just bring all .223 as I can just reload and crank out 3,000 rounds and be done and I could buy ammo there if we run out or something. Or... go with 20 practical for a little better performance over .223 but that might open a can of worms since I don't know much about that caliber other than its .204-like and I could use my current 223 brass.
So figure at least 3 people going what do we need?

- Rounds? 800 each for 2 days?
- Guns? - are the 22 rimfires or .17 wsms worth taking? Don't know how many shots 50-100 yards you even get on P Dogs might be a waste
- If all center fire is one gun each and maybe 1 extra enough? I was thinking one .223 each and maybe 1 backup gun. But maybe its a 2 gun each type thing dunno never been Pdogging
- Where to go? - No idea which places are the best for Pdog hunts. But sort of want a place that specializes and provides meals range etc.
- Extra gun - I could see us each getting one more new gun or upper. .223 or .20 practicle, Bolt or AR upper? If AR upper what barrels are accurate and what twist? I'm thinking if .223 would go 24" 1/12 shoot 53 gr Hornady or if Bolt maybe a CZ Varmint in .223. Only reason I'm sticking with .223 is I have brass, press and dies. If I found a good deal on pre loaded ammo I could do that too.
- Spotting scope worth it? I have a few of those old Bushnell Star gazer in 24x
- Video? I could get some kind of phone adapter for the spotting scopes
- bullets? if .223 thinking the 53gr as a do all would need to shoot decent out of all guns if .204 (20 prac) probably 39gr? or 40gr Vmax out of 1/10 or 1/11 twist?

Drive or fly there? I'm thinking flying might be a hassle with guns involved. How do people transport them so thinking it might be a long drive just to get there from Michigan.

Any help on what to bring, where to go and what type of guns and extra stuff to bring would be appreciated. Just trying to prevent the post trip stuff where you go "Shit I wish I brought this or that or went to a diff place etc"

To one of your original questions for you group of four bring your .204 ( pencil barrel and all.) your 223 and 2 17wsm. If your going to buy another gun or two. A couple more .223 would be perfect. I see weatherby vanguards on gunbroker for aroun $450. I picked up a 22/250 savage Axis II AT WALMART with a 4/12 scope on it for 419.00 the thing shoots less then 1/2 inch groups at 100yards. Ammo can be spendy for that caliber ( over $1 a round) . So maybe just stick with .223 since you have all the stuff to load for it. So again for 4 guys 2 or 3 .223’s the 2 17wsm and the .204. Alternate shooting and spotting and you will have a great time.
If your decide your going to go more times then seriously look at the 20 practical. I shoot 32 grain ballistic tips at an average of 4002 fps. Flat shooting and serious splat factor. My 20 br is shooting 39 grain Blitzkings at 4200 fps. It literally sends pieces in every direction. Both of these guns received names this summer, the 20 br is called the “ Disintegrator” and the 20 practical got nicknamed “ Soul Snatcher 4000”.

 

[Hntnhrd]

I know a guide that bans the AR-15 period. He manages the towns for next year. he learned the hard way.

I seriously have considered it. I did have to tell people not to use FMJ bullets.

 

[BobbyJ]

To one of your original questions for you group of four bring your .204 ( pencil barrel and all.) your 223 and 2 17wsm. If your going to buy another gun or two. A couple more .223 would be perfect. I see weatherby vanguards on gunbroker for aroun $450. I picked up a 22/250 savage Axis II AT WALMART with a 4/12 scope on it for 419.00 the thing shoots less then 1/2 inch groups at 100yards. Ammo can be spendy for that caliber ( over $1 a round) . So maybe just stick with .223 since you have all the stuff to load for it. So again for 4 guys 2 or 3 .223’s the 2 17wsm and the .204. Alternate shooting and spotting and you will have a great time.
If your decide your going to go more times then seriously look at the 20 practical. I shoot 32 grain ballistic tips at an average of 4002 fps. Flat shooting and serious splat factor. My 20 br is shooting 39 grain Blitzkings at 4200 fps. It literally sends pieces in every direction. Both of these guns received names this summer, the 20 br is called the “ Disintegrator” and the 20 practical got nicknamed “ Soul Snatcher 4000”.

For simplicity I think I will stick with 223 but I like the 20 practical and .204 ruger better. If I find a deal on .204 ammo I'll bring that gun for sure.

I think Im going to try a 24" AR bull barrel on a Aero enhanced upper (they are stronger and free float) I have the parts just need a barrel for like 280.00 or so. If it shoots decent I'm done if it dont I'm not out as much.

Good to know the cheapie 223 bolts shoot well.

 

[Cemetery21]

not bothering to bring it.

Take it. Doesn't take up much room (if you are driving), and you might have some chances.
I've taken at least four rifles, one or more ARs on trips since the 1980s, but not a carbine. 14+ lbs., leaded rifle stock, 24"-27" heavy bull barrel and very good trigger. I only load 10 rounds in a mag. - good for follow up shots when there are multiple pups around a hole. This is a 20 Practical that is a consistent 1/2 MOA rifle:

 

[moorepower]

I have went out to Wyoming for 7 years less one for the WooHan, because I was too busy working. Over the years I have used, .17HMR, .17WSM, .17H, .204R, .22H, .222, .223. I took out my 6ARC with a 22" barrel and a 6CM that I use for 1000yd gong matches. I have killed more Pdogs with my .204LRPV shooting a 40 Vmax at 3800fps and .17H, custom Ruger 77 than all the others combined. When the wind isn't blowing over 5mph, the .17WSM is fantastic out to 2-300 yds. My 1-12 Rem 700 shoots the 53Vmax at close to 3400 with 3031 and does a fantastic job. I prefer a swivel bench, but this year I was in pastures that were miles long with rolling hills, and I could not drive out of the two tracks, so I walked several miles in 2 days. Must haves are water, a portable bench, something like a tripod for shooting, a lightweight stool, a bag of jerky and a hat that covers your head and neck. If you have to walk out a mile or two to shoot them. The most that I have shot is 350 shots a day, and that's a lot of shooting and is a rare thing these days with the plague and poison.

 

[Rick in Oregon]

I know a guide that bans the AR-15 period. He manages the towns for next year. he learned the hard way.

We don't use 'guides', but on virtually all the private ranches we shoot, none of the landowners want AR's in their fields and have told us that flatly. Bolt guns and single shots are the order of the day. Everyone I know shoots their bolt guns with SS followers installed on repeaters, or use true single shot bolt guns like Cooper and the solid bottom receiver BR style guns.

There's no need for rapid fire capability when shooting PD's or GS's anyway unless you intend to drive all available targets underground. And no chasing brass either.

But OT: Once Nosler came out with their .224" "Ballistic Tip" around 1995 or so, then trying it out on both PD's and GS's, I've never gone back to shooting any other weight for varmints in the 223, much favoring the 40 grainer for speed, accuracy, excellent trajectory/flat shooting and explosive terminal performance. If there was ever a bullet specifically designed for this type of shooting, this is IT, period. (IMO)