On beam scales part two

[Skeetman59]

Many shooters ask me questions about scales, beam scales in particular. I thought it might be useful to address some of those questions here.

Q: What is the accuracy that I can expect?
A: One half of one tenth or 1/20th of a grain for absolute accuracy in normal loading weights.

Q: What is the level of precision achievable with a beam scale.
A: I have a customer in Denton TX who has quantified this with SD of less than .02grains.
In general, I say plus or minus a kernel.

Q: What do you do to them?
A: I make them better (sorry, I'm not opening the box with the chicken bones for all to see.)

Q: What scale do you use?
A: I use a tuned Redding that is in too poor of shape to sell to anyone.

Q: What scale do you recommend?
A: An M5 if you have the scratch, a Redding or a D5 or older 502 if you are on a budget, all need tuning and calibrating.

Q: Can you tune an RCBS 505?
A: No, sorry that middle poise just doesn't allow for repeatability. It is a major design flaw. Two poise 505s work up wonderfully however.

Q: How long will it take?
A: it varies greatly. I'm one man, this is a side hobby that demands perfect focus. I'm never bugged by customers calling me. I know what it is like to wait for good stuff.

Q: Can you tune my 10-10 scale?
A: if it is American made, most likely, yes. If made elsewhere(Mexico,China) no!

Q: Will one of your scales reduce my ES and SD?
A: in most cases, yes. However, the chronograph and other loading practices must be up to the task.
In other words, dont expect my scale to make up for using mixed headstamp brass, etc.

Q: What do you think of the Dandy Auto Trickler?
A: I love mine and can't imagine how I lived without it. With it, one of my scales and a Lee powder measure($20) you have a very cost effective, high precision charging system

Scott Parker
Single Kernel Scales
VLD223@yahoo.com
661 364 1199

I have 3 Chargemaster Lites and a modern 505 scale. The 505 was free. I thought I had the cat’s ass setup, LOL.

I check the Chargemaster with the 505 after checking the 505 with scale weights.

Looks like I need a new scale trickler. Yes I’m a newbie.

 

[Overdrawn]

Unfortunately it looks like you need to go further. Although they may never be kernel sensitive they should certainly return to zero reliably and show deflection with 2-3 kernels of something like Varget.

The first and easiest thing to check is to shine a light down into the damper slot, checking for any fine stray hairs of wire wool etc. that have been attracted to the magnets. Also check that the damper blade is not touching the scale body in the slot, the blade is aluminum on these scales and quite flimsy.

If the damper end in all in order, then you must dive into the knife edge/bearings. The outer cover and bearing is easily inspected, removed and cleaned, unfortunately the inner bearing is not and the spring in the dial system is easily damaged. If you do decide to dig in, once you have the beam removed the knife edges can be removed and honed.
These knife edges are unlike the ones found on the usual reloading scales - they are quite large triangular section steel blocks and are quite easily honed flat on all sides on a flat glass plate.

Yes thanks for your advice 1066,

This is where I'm at, I've had the Ohaus for years sitting on a shelf untouched since this problem of not zeroing if the beam is held down and released and held up and released and I'm not getting any younger, (71) and never really missed not using it since I have Redding #1 and #2's, Lyman D5, D7 (Ohaus) scales, even the old Pacific Scales with the weights for different loads. (also sitting on the shelf's for years)

I've checked and adjusted the damper and slot with no difference in zero. Another thing with the spring I haven't mentioned is if I have a one grain weight in the pan with the beam at one grain the spring at zero there is a difference there also, if I move the beam to zero and turn the spring to one grain there's a about a tenth difference.

I have to find time to tackle the bearings and knife edges, that's what I've said for years, but I never seem to accomplish it. I've used fine ruby bench stones, honing wheels, diamond ceramic wheels for polishing my other knife edges but would like to hear what your suggestions would be to hone the knife edges.

 

[sparker]

Yes thanks for your advice 1066,

This is where I'm at, I've had the Ohaus for years sitting on a shelf untouched since this problem of not zeroing if the beam is held down and released and held up and released and I'm not getting any younger, (71) and never really missed not using it since I have Redding #1 and #2's, Lyman D5, D7 (Ohaus) scales, even the old Pacific Scales with the weights for different loads. (also sitting on the shelf's for years)

I've checked and adjusted the damper and slot with no difference in zero. Another thing with the spring I haven't mentioned is if I have a one grain weight in the pan with the beam at one grain the spring at zero there is a difference there also, if I move the beam to zero and turn the spring to one grain there's a about a tenth difference.

I have to find time to tackle the bearings and knife edges, that's what I've said for years, but I never seem to accomplish it. I've used fine ruby bench stones, honing wheels, diamond ceramic wheels for polishing my other knife edges but would like to hear what your suggestions would be to hone the knife edges.

As Alan has said, a piece of plate glass with 600 grit or finer SiC paper adhered to it will allow you to polish the pivot knives perfectly flat on their respective faces.

 

[1066]

Here's a few pictures of the knife edges used on the 304/Dial-o-Grain type scales. Once you actually get to them, they are about the easiest K/E to work on. Undo the grub screw and they just slip out, and they are flat on all sides. Getting the spring mechanism re-calibrated is another matter altogether.

You can see here, damp conditions have eaten away at the edges.

https://imgur.com/94fAc9n

https://imgur.com/ECsLuYv

https://imgur.com/sS2Iaax

https://imgur.com/AES1vGq

 

[Bat Rastard]

I am going to side track here.

This thread has much good information freely shared by Mr. Parker and Allen (1066).
I have had dealings with both of them and found them both to be fine upstanding gentlemen.
I have a tuned scale from Scott. Allen's tricklers are slicker than snot.

Their immense knowledge of scale stuff benefits us all.

I thank you both for sharing your time and experience.
Bat

 

[1066]

I am going to side track here.

This thread has much good information freely shared by Mr. Parker and Allen (1066).
I have had dealings with both of them and found them both to be fine upstanding gentlemen.
I have a tuned scale from Scott. Allen's tricklers are slicker than snot.

Their immense knowledge of scale stuff benefits us all.

I thank you both for sharing your time and experience.
Bat

Well thank you Bat - I'm pleased your Targetmaster trickler is working well for you.

 

[sparker]

Yes, many thanks for your kindness.

Scott

 

[TAJ45]

Ok Scott, l have one of your 1010s but ran across an OHaus 1110. No check wgt.
It seems to want to hang up at either extreme. Yessss, l try to be gentle and not let'er bang. Usually when weighing brass for a count by wgt l notice it as I'm gently removing or adding a pc or two while holding a beam. I have an electronic gram scale for bulk brass or pills.
Your wait time if this is a candidate and charge please.
Thanks in advance, Tom

 

[sparker]

Ok Scott, l have one of your 1010s but ran across an OHaus 1110. No check wgt.
It seems to want to hang up at either extreme. Yessss, l try to be gentle and not let'er bang. Usually when weighing brass for a count by wgt l notice it as I'm gently removing or adding a pc or two while holding a beam. I have an electronic gram scale for bulk brass or pills.
Your wait time if this is a candidate and charge please.
Thanks in advance, Tom

Hi Tom, you have a pm

 

[Overdrawn]

Here's a few pictures of the knife edges used on the 304/Dial-o-Grain type scales. Once you actually get to them, they are about the easiest K/E to work on. Undo the grub screw and they just slip out, and they are flat on all sides. Getting the spring mechanism re-calibrated is another matter altogether.

You can see here, damp conditions have eaten away at the edges.

https://imgur.com/94fAc9n

https://imgur.com/ECsLuYv

https://imgur.com/sS2Iaax

https://imgur.com/AES1vGq

Thanks for the photo's they're well over a thousand words worth. I'm not sure what the knife edges are I haven't removed the dust covers to look at the inner workings, I'm going to see what it will intail getting the dust covers off without damaging them. I do have new covers along with the bearings if i do damage the old dust covers. One more Would you change the bearings along with honing the knive edges or leave the old bearings. Also, would you use the new covers or replace the original covers.

Yes, the spring mechanism re calibration is some reason the scale is still on the shelf, I've got to do some homework, any thoughts on how you and Scott would remove suggest I keep the spring from damage and calibrated.

Thanks again for all your help and assistance,
John

 

[1066]

Thanks for the photo's they're well over a thousand words worth. I'm not sure what the knife edges are I haven't removed the dust covers to look at the inner workings, I'm going to see what it will intail getting the dust covers off without damaging them. I do have new covers along with the bearings if i do damage the old dust covers. One more Would you change the bearings along with honing the knive edges or leave the old bearings. Also, would you use the new covers or replace the original covers.

Yes, the spring mechanism re calibration is some reason the scale is still on the shelf, I've got to do some homework, any thoughts on how you and Scott would remove suggest I keep the spring from damage and calibrated.

Thanks again for all your help and assistance,
John

If you're prepared to have ago (and take the risk that it may never work again) and if you succeed it will be a satisfying experience and worth the effort.
I'm not an expert 304 mechanic by any means, these scales have always been a bit exotic and quite a rare beast, especially on my side of the pond, any information here is given in good faith but you must pick and choose what, if any you may find helpful.
Because all the workings of these scales are hidden out of sight, they are often badly neglected, full of dust spiders etc.

1) Remove the dial, it's held on by a small grub hex grubscrew. This might be your first problem; you need to remove the screw completely and the dial should slide off the brass shaft. In reality they are sometimes a devil of a job to get off due to corrosion.

https://imgur.com/OMMjgoc

2) Remove the outer dust cover, it's slides up to reveal the bearing, knife edge and lose endplate.

https://imgur.com/SMr5QUM

3) Remove the spring attachment plate from the beam, leaving it attached to the spring.

https://imgur.com/xAEStah

4) The whole dial/spring assembly can now be removed. There are two Allen bolts holding the dial assembly in position.
One bolt can be seen in this picture, unfortunately the other is under the dial (Hense step 1)

https://imgur.com/8J52QjT

5) You can now remove the inner dust cover and lift out the beam. The knife edges are held in place by a grub screw, but the knife edges are usually a tight fit and must be pressed out.

https://imgur.com/T4Y7It9

6) Clean up the knife edges, checking with an eyeglass for dull spots. Don't forget there are two knife edges, the second one is for the pan hanger - it's exactly the same as the main knife edge.
The pan hanger also has its own agate bearings too.
https://i.imgur.com/m2GLxfA.png

7) The agate bearings rarely give any trouble. One unusual thing I have found is that the main bearings look as if they should be free floating, they sit on little pillars like they do in regular reloading scales but every one of the 304 type scales I've come across, either one or both of the bearings have been fixed by some sort of shellac compound.
https://i.imgur.com/a5WIkHJ.png

8) A good clean up all round and put it back together. Because you have left the spring attachment still fixed to the spring, it should go back in the right place with no worries. Once all assembled set everything to zero, replace the dial but don't tighten the grub screw. If everything is balanced at zero, you now just need the dial to read zero too. Use a set of grain checkweights to confirm everything is working as it should.
https://i.imgur.com/uyXVhJN.png

Then sit back - enjoy a single malt while you contemplate on an afternoon well spent.

 

[RegionRat]

I'm not an expert 304 mechanic by any means, these scales have always been a bit exotic and quite a rare beast, especially on my side of the pond,

This scale was used in bulk by high school chem and science labs on this side. They were often replaced en mass making them a dime a dozen at surplus auction. I once saw a whole row of several dumpsters full of them when nobody bid for them, headed for the landfill.

 

[Beiruty]

I have this scale, the measured accuracy is 99.7% or the error is 0.3%, it is good enough for pistol and 223 sized cases but weighing 50gr and plus and the scale is not that accurate
Can it be tuned more? or is this accuracy normal?

 

[BoydAllen]

I have this scale, the measured accuracy is 99.7% or the error is 0.3%, it is good enough for pistol and 223 sized cases but weighing 50gr and plus and the scale is not that accurate
Can it be tuned more? or is this accuracy normal?
View attachment 1375424

Having successfully tuned several Ohaus and RCBS by Ohaus scales, I was curious to see what I could do with a friend's Hornady. I came to the conclusion that it was not a good candidate. I believe that the problem is in the design of bearings that the knife edges sit on. Of course you may succeed where I failed. Just reporting my results or rather lack of.

 

[pdhntr]

I have this scale, the measured accuracy is 99.7% or the error is 0.3%, it is good enough for pistol and 223 sized cases but weighing 50gr and plus and the scale is not that accurate
Can it be tuned more? or is this accuracy normal?
View attachment 1375424

I have one just exactly like that. (in so many ways). Several years ago I discovered a discrepancy between 39.8, 39.9 and 40.0 grains. I got a set of scale weights and spent hours testing the scale. I found the problem was occurring at other weights on the scale.

Making a long story short, I believe it was Scott that identified it as a poise positional problem. Meaning the poise detents are not cut correctly. I don't know about yours, but mine can't be fixed, and I have since gone to an Ohaus.

Jim

 

[Infrequent Shooter]

Many shooters ask me questions about scales, beam scales in particular. I thought it might be useful to address some of those questions here.

Q: What is the accuracy that I can expect?
A: One half of one tenth or 1/20th of a grain for absolute accuracy in normal loading weights.

Q: What is the level of precision achievable with a beam scale.
A: I have a customer in Denton TX who has quantified this with SD of less than .02grains.
In general, I say plus or minus a kernel.

Q: What do you do to them?
A: I make them better (sorry, I'm not opening the box with the chicken bones for all to see.)

Q: What scale do you use?
A: I use a tuned Redding that is in too poor of shape to sell to anyone.

Q: What scale do you recommend?
A: An M5 if you have the scratch, a Redding or a D5 or older 502 if you are on a budget, all need tuning and calibrating.

Q: Can you tune an RCBS 505?
A: No, sorry that middle poise just doesn't allow for repeatability. It is a major design flaw. Two poise 505s work up wonderfully however.

Q: How long will it take?
A: it varies greatly. I'm one man, this is a side hobby that demands perfect focus. I'm never bugged by customers calling me. I know what it is like to wait for good stuff.

Q: Can you tune my 10-10 scale?
A: if it is American made, most likely, yes. If made elsewhere(Mexico,China) no!

Q: Will one of your scales reduce my ES and SD?
A: in most cases, yes. However, the chronograph and other loading practices must be up to the task.
In other words, dont expect my scale to make up for using mixed headstamp brass, etc.

Q: What do you think of the Dandy Auto Trickler?
A: I love mine and can't imagine how I lived without it. With it, one of my scales and a Lee powder measure($20) you have a very cost effective, high precision charging system

Scott Parker
Single Kernel Scales
VLD223@yahoo.com
661 364 1199

Question re nomenclature,,, What would a Redding #2 or Ohaus 505, or other counter balanced single beam scale be identified as a class or type of scale?

 

[sparker]

Question re nomenclature,,, What would a Redding #2 or Ohaus 505, or other counter balanced single beam scale be identified as a class or type of scale?

Both are two-poise beams.

 

[BoydAllen]

On the subject of banging the stops, I have padded them on my RCBS 10-10 which has also limited the beam' swing a bit and with that, I have faster settling. I have a roll of the thinnest, lowest density self adhesive foam, that I cut my stop padding from. I believe that it is this product. I had bought is for sealing a camper shell at the bed top.

M-D Building Products 30 ft. Gray Foam Tape Camper Weatherstrip Adhesive for Camper Shells 02352 - The Home Depot

MD Building Products - 1-1/2 in. x 30 ft. Camper Seal Foam Tape - Create an airtight and waterproof seal between truck panels and the camper or cap with this self-adhesive tape. - THD SKU# 725277

www.homedepot.com

If I did not throw it out I probably have enough for several hundred scales.

On the useful sensitivity, my results agree with Mr. Parker's. If you balance your scale and then move the poise .1 grain you will see how little the pointer moves from its balanced positon, which brings me to my next point. Some sort of magnification is a great advantage. I have a very cheap web cam and since I have a computer monitor on the same desk that I reload on, I find that it is very convenient to have a relatively huge, very close up image of the pointer and reference marks to view. Others have put together brackets for cell phones, or tablets. Back in the dark ages I rigged up a mirror and magnifying glass that inverted the image but did make it easier to see. Here is a link to a video by 1066 demonstrating the use of a web cam.

 

[R.Morehouse]

A setup like this is all I use now with a Parker-tuned beam scale. My laptop is a bit further away and my scale is turned so the pan is the only thing sitting right in front of me with a small webcam aimed right at the pointer. The camera is on its provided stand and that allows me to move it to point at any portion of the scale for weight adjustments, sparing my aging eyes. I throw powder with one of my throwers ( I kind of collect different ones and enjoy using them ) then trickle up with a small hand-turning unit. I am a low-volume reloader but my system is surprisingly quick although that was not the point of doing it.

Regards
Rick

.........I just scrolled over this whole thread.......It seems I keep repeating myself..........Looks like my eyes aren't the only things that are aging.....LOL

 

[Tempest]

Ditto on magnification. I use a Teslong Borescope secured in a mount I made. I position the camera a close as possible and display on a large lap top monitor. You can clearly see pointer move with one kernal.