OK If sorting doesn’t

[dellet]

There are a lot of people that shoot cast bullets, black powder cartridges with smokeless powder that absolutely believe indexing the case and or bullet for each shot noticeably reduce group size.

Other than primer and firing pin location a 22LR is no different, with the exception of not being able to use the same case to prove the point. You still have a long straight walled case with low density powder charge, with a primer over the charge similar to a 12 o’clock firing pin.

Lots of debate over using wads to hold the powder in place and if so where to place it. On the powder, at the case mouth or how far off the powder.

I have tried indexing a case and recording shots, much like you would for checking tracking on a scope and believe it has merit. A wild card is my ability at casting bullets. I have enough other issues to blame before position of the case in the chamber can be eliminated.

I also think that sorting rimfire ammo has a lot of potential. I started doing that with 22 shorts, simply because there really isn’t a choice for ammo. You take what you can get.

Sorting by rim thickness and then base to ogive has helped reduce group size and eliminate flyers.
Using a chronograph proves that SD/ES numbers can be terrible, and out of my control.

The Stowaway has posted many video clips of other trouble spots to worry about. All the things center fire shooters can control. Case consistency, bullet shape and loaded runout, rim runout thing you can’t control other than setting the round aside. Many things that may cause a flyer, but until you can shoot that case repeatedly, you won’t be able to prove the case is the problem.

Trying different lots of ammo until you find something that shoots well is no more than bulk sorting. It would be interesting to compare cartridges from different lots that have shot well in the same rifle and record the measurements and then try to find another lot by comparison, instead of by target results. I think that might prove once and for all if sorting has merit.

I think sorting is basically summed up as after the factory quality control. Your results will reflect your ability to spot problems against the ability of the person or machine at the factory.

I have also hadn’t a couple rifles that didn’t seem to respond to any ammo and either get shot for pure fun or went down the road.

No magic answers from me, maybe some things to think about. I think the comparison of rimfire to the shooters in the Schuetzen game and what they do to reduce group size is worth a look.

 

[greisdor]

I load the round into the chamber with my thumb then close the bolt as you do, no chance of dinging the bullet by forcing the bolt closed on a cockeyed sitting bullet.
Might have to try a few different drills on settling the powder in a consistent lay before placing it on the feed ramp.

You may have hit a reason for causing flyers. Bullet dings on loading.

I will look more closely at that problem......

Thanks

 

[garandman]

You may have hit a reason for causing flyers. Bullet dings on loading.

I will look more closely at that problem......

Thanks

Vudoo's feeding System was specifically and intentionally engineered to grab the rim coming off the magazine and feed it into the chamber without the nose of the round touching the chamber wall ... To specifically avoid the bullet dings.

 

[Tony K Harper]

Vudoo's feeding System was specifically and intentionally engineered to grab the rim coming off the magazine and feed it into the chamber without the nose of the round touching the chamber wall ... To specifically avoid the bullet dings.

garandman,

Do you know if that "grab" holds on (makes contact with the case) while at battery, and through the firing process?

TKH

 

[Topwater]

I agree that “fliers” exist, even in really good ammunition. That being stated, I am to an age where I must admit that when I have one, it is probably my own fault. I’ve quit looking for excuses to cover my shortcomings.

 

[linebaugh]

In Rimfire the search for powder that better fills the case has been on from the beginning.

Centerfire proved long ago that cases filled as full as possible without compression achieve maximum consistency.

Federal Cartridge company looked far and long to find such powder when developing UM1 ammo. I recall Federal tried using spacers, fillers, and different agents applied to the powder but found nothing. It was all they could do to slow it down the bullet below the speed of sound and still get enough powder to fill some of the empty space. I don't know Eley or Lapua have looked but would be very surprised if they haven't.

The .22 rimfire cartridge wasn't developed as an accuracy cartridge and it has proven very difficult to make it one.

John is right time is better spent learning to read the wind.

I hope the take away from this thread is: anyone can win a rimfire match with just about anything they choose to shoot, so show up and shoot.

The season starts shortly.

TKH

Shorten the case length. If at first we dont succeed...
Benchrest guys loading singles likely wont have much issue changing. Of course rules may preclude such an idea.

And I totally agree with the concept that we might as well shoot what we have and accept the limitations for what they are. Shoot more, worry less about the things we can't control.

 

[garandman]

garandman,

Do you know if that "grab" holds on (makes contact with the case) while at battery, and through the firing process?

TKH

Yes, from initial contact in the mag thru ejection. I think there is a YouTube video that shows it

 

[grauhanen]

The Vudoo V22 loading process in sequence, beginning with the bolt face approaching the round in the magazine. The bullet itself is entering the chamber before the rim is in the extractors.

 

[garandman]

 

[Tony K Harper]

Thank you for posting the video.

Am I correct in assuming this feature isn't found on the V 22S F-Class/BR action single shot?

 

[garandman]

Thank you for posting the video.

Am I correct in assuming this feature isn't found on the V 22S F-Class/BR action single shot?

The 22 single shot loads ammo into a feed tray that is positioned to cause the round to slide directly into the chamber so this feed control system is not necessary.

 

[Bart B.]

All of the 100 yard prone w/scope records for 40 shot matches set before 1980 still stand. As does most of the 50 yard ones.

An explosion back then at a factory case priming station ended up being fixed by adding more glass frit to the primer mix. The formula was also changed. All factorys complied.

Accuracy almost doubled in size. Barrel life was reduced about 40%.

 

[grauhanen]

All of the 100 yard prone w/scope records for 40 shot matches set before 1980 still stand. As does most of the 50 yard ones.

An explosion back then at a factory case priming station ended up being fixed by adding more glass frit to the primer mix. The formula was also changed. All factorys complied.

Accuracy almost doubled in size. Barrel life was reduced about 40%.

Is this anecdotal or is there anything published or online to corroborate the above information?

 

[Bart B.]

Click on:

Competitive Shooting Programs

NRA's Competitive Shooting Division offers a wide range of activities in all types of shooting, for everyone from the novice to the world-class competitor. The NRA sanctions over 11,000 shooting tournaments and sponsors over 50 national championships each year.

competitions.nra.org

Then select....

Rifle ... smallbore ... outdoor prone ... 100 yards ... 40 shots ... any sight

100 yard X ring is 1.000 inch. .391 inch at 50 yards: see targets below.

Lones Wigger told me about the primer issues years ago. As did the USA Eley rep.

 

[grauhanen]

Thanks, Bart B.

It appears the results in prone at 100 aren't as categorical as described above, the prone 50 even less so with no top results listed from the 1980's (Smallbore prone, any sights, outdoor, 50 meters/yards). This doesn't seem to support a contention that "accuracy doubled".

It would be interesting to know more about the primer change occurring after the explosion and whether all manufacturers responded the same way.

 

[Bart B.]

All rimfire ammo companies changed their primer mix.

Eley Tenex and RWS R50/100 was more accurate than others back then. Accuracy doubling means groups are twice as big. Largest groups best define accuracy because all the variables are at maximum amounts.

 

[grauhanen]

Accuracy doubling means groups are twice as big. Largest groups best define accuracy because all the variables are at maximum amounts.

Indeed.

Some caution may be in order here. It's one thing to say that accuracy may have diminished, but it's quite another to say that group size doubled because of changes to the ammo.

While many small bore records in prone at 100 meters are indeed from the 1980's, there are similar and quite respectable scores in years after that decade. And there are other small bore disciplines that don't have record scores only from the 1980s and earlier.

 

[Bart B.]

While many small bore records in prone at 100 meters are indeed from the 1980's, there are similar and quite respectable scores in years after that decade. And there are other small bore disciplines that don't have record scores only from the 1980s and earlier.

The website I referenced lists records up to date. Scroll down and you'll see one dated 2011 for seniors.

Change the search criteria and see others.

Group sizes for a few shots is one example for other disciplines. All the other groups are bigger.

What best defines accuracy; largest groups or smallest ones?

 

[Tony K Harper]

The website I referenced lists records up to date. Change the search criteria and see them.

Group sizes for a few shots is one example for other disciplines. All the other groups are bigger.

Bart B.,

When the Lapua ammo factory blew up in Finland it lead to the European Union forcing rimfire ammo makers to change the way they primed rimfire cases.

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj65ej8t63vAhXLFVkFHfx4BVgQFjADegQIAxAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F1976%2F04%2F14%2Farchives%2Fexplosion-in-finland-kills-45-injures-70-at-munitions-plant.html&usg=AOvVaw0w-UpCONDqlbeG5hmdIZHW

Eley was the first company to develop an approved priming method. It is called "Eley Prime". This method is used to this day. Eley sold this method to other companies including Lapua.

I can attest to the fact this priming mixture (ground glass) plays hell with stainless barrels. Anyone that has looked down a bore with a bore scope has seen what is called the "gravel road". It is called that because the six o'clock position in the bore will look like a gravel road rather than smooth and shiny as the rest of the bore.

Accuracy did suffer from the new process. How much I don't know.

But in light of this RFBR has continued to set new records every year. I believe this is despite of the ammo rather than because of it.

TKH

 

[Bart B.]

TKH,

Thanks for that informative link.

The gravel road you mention used to climb up to 3 and 9 o'clock at the 50 to 55 thousand rounds levels before accuracy degraded too much. After the primer got more abrasive glass frit in it, around 30 thousand rounds was the limit. So claims Neal Johnson who was the US Olympic Training Center riflesmith.

Best lots used to shoot under 1/3 MOA through 100 yards. Now it's about 2/3.

The reason rimfire benchrest records get smaller over time is the same as their largest groups fired getting bigger. A statistical fact.