OK If sorting doesn’t

[The stowaway]

Maybe the position of the propellant affects a difference in accuracy?

I do not know !

 

[Tony K Harper]

The Stowaway you always bring up the most interesting points.

Nearly all custom RFBR actions have adopted 6 o clock firing pin strikes.

Is it better for the flame to go across the top of the powder or shoot through the powder for ignition?

Does 6 o clock ignition help if you hap hazardly handle the rounds as you load them into the chamber?

TKH

 

[VLNBYR]

Does 6 o clock ignition help if you hap hazardly handle the rounds as you load them into the chamber?

TKH

Tony...If a shooter has eliminated all the big crumbs and is down to how he handles the bullet during loading the rest of us have no chance and need to be selling our sorry stuff for whatever it will bring.

One of the major problems is that shooters get fixated on tiny problems and aren't dealing with the big issues first.

 

[dgeesaman]

Work - how does one get rid of the unexplained fliers? Using good Lapua centerX....

JR

Is this lot tested by Lapua?
Because that’s really what lot testing delivers - ammo that doesn’t produce fliers in your rifle.

Edit: I see you’d rather try more barrels. if ammo is very hard to find or you have a huge stash of one lot, this could work too. But it may not work. Some ammo lots just have fliers and that’s all.

David

 

[linebaugh]

The Stowaway you always bring up the most interesting points.

Nearly all custom RFBR actions have adopted 6 o clock firing pin strikes.

Is it better for the flame to go across the top of the powder or shoot through the powder for ignition?

Does 6 o clock ignition help if you hap hazardly handle the rounds as you load them into the chamber?

TKH

How do we determine the 6 oclock position means anything to the powder if the priming compound encompasses the entire rim? I just feel like so many of these "proven" ideas are in fact far from proven and more so repeated as fact.

 

[Tony K Harper]

Tony...If a shooter has eliminated all the big crumbs and is down to how he handles the bullet during loading the rest of us have no chance and need to be selling our sorry stuff for whatever it will bring.

One of the major problems is that shooters get fixated on tiny problems and aren't dealing with the big issues first.

John,

I think I know one of the major problems/crumbs you speak of. Trying to tune a rifle that has a multitude of issues ranging from fatally flawed design to misalignment/misfit parts.

Can't tell you how much money/ammo I've wasted on that one.

But this is different. This is a very small crumb if it is a crump at all. One miscalculation in a wind push condition will erase all the small crumbs, and the big crumbs, you have over come. That is our fate.

My point was: does 6 o clock ignition have real world advantages?

The Stowaway's diagram showed powder could be anywhere in the case when the round was fired.

linebaugh pointed out the priming compound is all around the rim. We can expect the primer to ignite/explode although I have seen cases where it did not.

But the follow on question here is does it matter where the spark comes from, top, bottom, or middle of the powder level.

May have little to nothing to do with real world shooting, just a curious question for inquiring minds.

TKH

 

[Tony K Harper]

How do we determine the 6 oclock position means anything to the powder if the priming compound encompasses the entire rim? I just feel like so many of these "proven" ideas are in fact far from proven and more so repeated as fact.

linebaugh,

" I just feel like so many of these "proven" ideas are in fact far from proven and more so repeated as fact."

What are these ideas you speak of?

TKH

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Maybe the position of the propellant affects a difference in accuracy?
View attachment 1240831
I do not know !

Going by these illustrations it clearly shows why a 6'o-clock hit to the primer is more beneficial. if you ever played with gun powder you know it doesn't just burn at one single moment but has a more gradual burn rate. since the primer is a more explosive reaction I would think the bullet would jump with a 12'oclock hit versus being pushed as the powder fully ignited.

Lee

 

[linebaugh]

linebaugh,

" I just feel like so many of these "proven" ideas are in fact far from proven and more so repeated as fact."

What are these ideas you speak of?

TKH

The idea that when I have a 360 degree ring of priming compound that ignites all but simultaniously on compression which is infinately faster than the powder it is set to ignite. This in turn somehow lights the bottom half of the powder faster than the top half because the primer strike is 6 o'clock.
Where did this empirical data come from? Logic tells me that the position of the primer strike is probably nearly indetectable as it pertains to actual powder ignition especially when considering the powder at 12 o'clock could see a larger surface area impacted due to being open from less than 100% case fill.

Even if you consider the bottom (6 o'clock) as getting the first concussion from the area the rim was struck why do we not assume the powder gets distupted in that area first as opposed to ignited?

 

[PatMiles]

Does 6 o clock ignition help if you hap hazardly handle the rounds as you load them into the chamber?

TKH

Tony,
Any thoughts on a routine for handling the rounds as they are placed on the loading ramp?

 

[Tony K Harper]

The idea that when I have a 360 degree ring of priming compound that ignites all but simultaniously on compression which is infinately faster than the powder it is set to ignite. This in turn somehow lights the bottom half of the powder faster than the top half because the primer strike is 6 o'clock.
Where did this empirical data come from? Logic tells me that the position of the primer strike is probably nearly indetectable as it pertains to actual powder ignition especially when considering the powder at 12 o'clock could see a larger surface area impacted due to being open from less than 100% case fill.

Even if you consider the bottom (6 o'clock) as getting the first concussion from the area the rim was struck why do we not assume the powder gets distupted in that area first as opposed to ignited?

I take it that you think it matters not where the firing pin strikes the case, nor where the powder is in the case when the strike occurs.

I see that Hi NV Shooter thinks the diagrams explain why 6 o clock pin strikes are beneficial.

There are those that believe there is a difference in the accuracy potential of 6 o'clock vs 12 o'clock ignition.

The point I alluded to was could it be more about how the rounds are loaded rather than the the pin strike position or where the powder was in the case at the time of the strike. That was a question, nothing more.

I know of no empirical data on this subject. If you do, please share.

TKH

 

[Tony K Harper]

Tony,
Any thoughts on a routine for handling the rounds as they are placed on the loading ramp?

I do not.

I load directly into the chamber rather than placing rounds on the loading ramp and closing the bolt.

On occasion I have positioned rounds so that the powder falls back against the case head rather than being forward away from the case head, but I'm sure that is just an anal thing.

TKH

 

[PatMiles]

I do not.

I load directly into the chamber rather than placing rounds on the loading ramp and closing the bolt.

On occasion I have positioned rounds so that the powder falls back against the case head rather than being forward away from the case head, but I'm sure that is just an anal thing.

TKH

I load the round into the chamber with my thumb then close the bolt as you do, no chance of dinging the bullet by forcing the bolt closed on a cockeyed sitting bullet.
Might have to try a few different drills on settling the powder in a consistent lay before placing it on the feed ramp.

 

[linebaugh]

The key to fixing the powder position/firing pin position issue would be to fill the case with an appropriate powder. If it's actually an issue to begin with.

 

[1Merlin]

The key to fixing the powder position/firing pin position issue would be to fill the case with an appropriate powder. If it's actually an issue to begin with.

I've read a thousand different ideas related to firing pin location but this is the first time I have seen this.... What an extraordinary thought. Use a more compatible powder to accomplish your goal.

 

[Tokay444]

I think I understand why the theory of a 6 o’clock firing pin aiding in ignition due to powder placement is so quickly dismissed. The assumption was made that the priming compound ignites instantly about the entire rim. This simply is not the case. While primer compound does burn faster than powder, it’s far from instant. There is a time component to primer ignition as well.

 

[VLNBYR]

You guys keep right on working on your micro-crumbs, I think I'll work on my wind reading.

 

[linebaugh]

I think I understand why the theory of a 6 o’clock firing pin aiding in ignition due to powder placement is so quickly dismissed. The assumption was made that the priming compound ignites instantly about the entire rim. This simply is not the case. While primer compound does burn faster than powder, it’s far from instant. There is a time component to primer ignition as well.

Sure there is and as such there is also powder disruption which would occur due to the powder not igniting instantly just as the priming compound takes time so does the powder.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I take it that you think it matters not where the firing pin strikes the case, nor where the powder is in the case when the strike occurs.

I see that Hi NV Shooter thinks the diagrams explain why 6 o clock pin strikes are beneficial.

There are those that believe there is a difference in the accuracy potential of 6 o'clock vs 12 o'clock ignition.

The point I alluded to was could it be more about how the rounds are loaded rather than the the pin strike position or where the powder was in the case at the time of the strike. That was a question, nothing more.

I know of no empirical data on this subject. If you do, please share.

TKH

Tony, Perhaps wrong choice of words. maybe could be beneficial versus more beneficial. I shot both, both rifles shot really well, I currently only have 12'clock now.
but your point on how the round is loaded rings true, even how it feels when closing the bolt. from my experience even the inconsistency of this proved it didn't shoot the same

Lee

 

[Tony K Harper]

The key to fixing the powder position/firing pin position issue would be to fill the case with an appropriate powder. If it's actually an issue to begin with.

In Rimfire the search for powder that better fills the case has been on from the beginning.

Centerfire proved long ago that cases filled as full as possible without compression achieve maximum consistency.

Federal Cartridge company looked far and long to find such powder when developing UM1 ammo. I recall Federal tried using spacers, fillers, and different agents applied to the powder but found nothing. It was all they could do to slow it down the bullet below the speed of sound and still get enough powder to fill some of the empty space. I don't know Eley or Lapua have looked but would be very surprised if they haven't.

The .22 rimfire cartridge wasn't developed as an accuracy cartridge and it has proven very difficult to make it one.

John is right time is better spent learning to read the wind.

I hope the take away from this thread is: anyone can win a rimfire match with just about anything they choose to shoot, so show up and shoot.

The season starts shortly.

TKH