NRA AR-Tactical rifle div, questions.

[eric32]

So as most of you know they have added a AR-Tactical division.

With a 223rem thru 308win caliber restriction .

So i have read the rules i get the impression that any caliber ranging from 223rem up to 308win is allowed to compete in this class. That will fit in a AR15 and AR10 platform.

Am I correct on this statement.

Also if that is correct, i have everything to load a 308win and on my T7 press. Will it worth the money to use a 6mm bullet vs the 30cal for midrange only?

Or I can use the extra slots on the press and use it for 223rem, i already have brass and powder.

 

[usftr]

I hadn't noticed this division until you mentioned it. Reading the rules, I'd like to ask another question. Rules mention the magazine and say a sled is not allowed. Does this mean load up a magazine or single load?

 

[eric32]

maybe load 20 and go to town ? i saw that as well, i believe in the Tactical spirit it would be either load as many as the string allows for. Or a mandatory "tactical"mag change.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

That seems correct with the written rules, but match directors have discretion to interpret provisional rules according to the perceived intent, and there will likely be a range of interpretations as things shake out.

My advice would be to go to a few matches with the equipment you already have and wait until things shake out a bit more before investing in builds for this new event.

 

[eric32]

yea i don't own an AR style rifle, so this is my excuse for finally getting one. This build could also double as a PRS training rifle as well so its a win-win-win

 

[Berger.Fan222]

yea i don't own an AR style rifle, so this is my excuse for finally getting one. This build could also double as a PRS training rifle as well so its a win-win-win

That makes sense. Some of my buddies have had the same thought. But from what I see so far, one could be fairly competitive with a .223 Rem/5.56 for several years (while learning a lot), and then move to a preferred caliber down the road if the discipline persists.

From the weight limitations (and cost constraints), I think most folks would do better with a .223, especially in areas where inherent accuracy is more important than wind reading. Things tend to be fairly still in the matches I attend (mostly), and the .223s often beat the .308s in F-TR. Double the size of the 10 ring, and that will likely happen even more often. With a 14 lb weight limit (rifle, scope, bipod, magazine), I think most shooters new to the AR world can do more with a .223.

 

[eric32]

I do agree, with all that you stated. Since the AR platform it's more or less the same as my XLR chassis it will be a easy transition. And i can get a 12X swfa to match my HD, that makes it easy.

 

[Ned Ludd]

If I read the attached Rules/Supplement correctly, everything must be mag fed. That will be a hindrance in the ability of the .223 to use load and use heavy bullets. This will be more of a disadvantage for the .223 than is currently found in F-TR, where the 80 and 90 gr .223 bullets can be competitive against .308 bullets up to about 185 gr in weight, especially at 600 yd or less. My guess is that it would be easier to load 185s in a mag-fed .308 semi than to load 80s or 90s in a mag-fed .223.


http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/artacticalpronemidrange.pdf

 

[eric32]

Its not a F-T/R target that will be used, your talking 1/2 MOA X's F-T/R vs 1 MOA X's High Powered

 

[Berger.Fan222]

This will be more of a disadvantage for the .223 than is currently found in F-TR, where the 80 and 90 gr .223 bullets can be competitive against .308 bullets up to about 185 gr in weight, especially at 600 yd or less. My guess is that it would be easier to load 185s in a mag-fed .308 semi than to load 80s or 90s in a mag-fed .223.

I've loaded 80 grain SMKs in mag lengths for ARs and it is workable. There are a number of disadvantages the AR Tactical rifle compared with F-Class: 1) mag length 2) rifle weight (14 lbs) 3)barrel length (20") 4) bipod style (Harris type) 5) and AR style semi-auto. Getting all the other accuracy bits equal between a .223 and a .308 under these constraints (so that wind drift dominates at 300-600 yards) is trickier and tends to be much more expensive in .308.

Consider the rifle weight and bipod limitation. The reason why the new bipod designs are so popular (even in 18 lb F-TR rifles) is that they are easier to shoot accurately under .308 recoil. The Harris bipod has a much smaller accuracy penalty shooting a 14 lb .223 than a 14 lb .308. For many shooters, recoil management under these rules will be a bigger issue than the wind drift differences.

Though I like the 80 SMK and other 75-80 grain bullets at 600 yards, the new Nosler RDF 70 grain bullet with BC of 0.416 is probably more suited to this role, given the shorter barrel length and magazine feeding.

Bottom line: getting a 14 lb AR-15 in .223 shooting MOA from a Harris bipod is a much easier reloading and shooting proposition than getting a 14 lb AR-10 in .308 doing the same thing. The wind drift advantages of the 185 grain .308 bullets only come into play once shooters achieve that level of inherent accuracy.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I've loaded the 80.5s to mag length. Didn't say it was impossible, just more difficult than developing a load for a .308 AR with a 185 for a lot of people. I compete regularly in F-TR, so I know something about the use of these calibers in competition. I've also shot that load at 600 yd. The difference between it and a .308 shooting 185s is not small, it's huge. The wind advantages of the .308 against 80 gr bullets will be noticeable to almost any level shooter if the .223 is limited to 80 gr bullets for some, or even lighter weights for many. You can't get away from BC.

 

[eric32]

Another limitation is the scope power is limited to 12X.


I believe the purpose for this class is the NRAs way to get everyone out to shoot more matches, which i am glad for. It will include the majority of recreational shooters, that is my guess

 

[usftr]

Competition muzzle brake prohibited, factory installed flash hider allowed. What about factory installed muzzle brake on an AR10?

 

[Berger.Fan222]

The wind advantages of the .308 against 80 gr bullets will be noticeable to almost any level shooter if the .223 is limited to 80 gr bullets for some, or even lighter weights for many. You can't get away from BC.

Sure, it matters. But BC matters less if the wind isn't blowing too much, the ranges are shorter, and the 10 ring is 2 MOA.

At the same time recoil effects of the .308 are increased in a 14 lb rifle shooting off a Harris bipod. Getting MOA accuracy from the AR-10s also tends to be harder than in the AR-15s and bolt actions.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Competition muzzle brake prohibited, factory installed flash hider allowed. What about factory installed muzzle brake on an AR10?

I noticed that. With some room left for match director interpretation, my guess is most match directors will say no.

 

[mac86951]

For 600y; a 223 from magazine certainly can stay in the high-power 10 ring, but without the 80gr help; I'd be looking at 6mmAR; or an AR-10 in 6 creedmoor / lapua / 243. Even the 6.5 x 47 or 6.5creed would be excellent choices too.

I'd be hard pressed in a class of anything between 223 and 308 caliber to choose a 223 unless I already had one. The 20" barrel is also the hindrance for velocity; but I'm sure if both are mag fed the 6mm or 6.5 will be well inside the 223. I've even seen a 7saum in an AR10; though a 20" barrel would a bit goofy...

-Mac

 

[XTR]

Everything I read about this class is that it's a provisional class to get shooters into the game. It does leave a ton of space for someone to "game" the system, which is exactly the opposite of the intent this class as I read it. I would be seriously surprised if this is ever anyting other than a set of loose rules for a provisional/fun match.

Something else to consider is that these are provisional and so the rules are highly subject to change. In any case it is certianly not someting for which I'd build a rifle, more to the point it would be fun for a rifle that wanted to own for whatever reason, and on occasion wanted to play with it in a competition.

If you want to build something to compete off of a bipod build an F class rifle, if you want to sling up then shoot a service or match rifle. If you did want to build something to game this system an AR10 platform with 6creedmore/243/6.5x47/260 would be the way to go. (until the NRA decides to change the rules next yr)

 

[eric32]

I missed the provisional part, anyone know how long it take for a class to move from provisional to a established class.

 

[XTR]

It hasn't happened since F class that I know of in recent history. (someone will surely correct that if it is wrong) F class existed and was growing, the NRA wanted to get control of it so it didn't take long, so in that case the NRA wasn't creating a new class.

This class popped up at the same time the NRAs changed the rules to allow optics on SRs. It seems obvious to the casual observer that this is a format to get people into their first few matches with training wheels before they graduate to sling shooting or F class. It also looks like it misses the mark on several fronts as anything more than a formalized fun shoot.

 

[eric32]

Why do you say it misses the mark?

I feel like the idea has a lot of potential, the weapons specs are not extremely specialized. Shooting next to someone with a brake sucks. A flash hider does not redirect gas over to the next guy. 12X power scope is a practical magnification for a mid-range hunting/target shooting. Not allowing rear bags with ears, means you can make one from old socks and plastic BB's.

Only using harris style bipod almost everyone owns one of those. 20" barrel limit makes it just challenging to anyone even if your shooting a 243win AR-10 or a 223rem or a 308win. Knowing your gun and when to shoot how to shoot then being able to take it on a coyote hunt the next day. Sounds pretty cool to me.

Yea i can see where this class would be called "Training wheels" but sometimes getting back to a raw style of shooting and not becoming a gear race. Lets a guy or gal go out and just shoot and maybe win a piece of wood with his/her name on it.