Norma 223 Brass Cases Compared to Lapua, PPU and Lake City

[B23]

Curious, has anyone done any work/testing with Winchester brass particularly the old Winchester brass that came in the blue and white bags versus the newer Win brass that comes in the red with black top bag??

This is not exclusive to just 223 brass but I've heard people say they thought the older Win brass that came in the blue and white bags was tougher more durable then the Win brass that comes in the red/black bags. My dad who is in his later 80's and memory not so good swears the Win 6mm brass that came in the white&blue bags was tougher and held primer pockets longer then the newer Win 6mm brass he got in the red&black bags. Wondering if anyone noticed anything like that with their 223 brass. In my 223AI I exclusively use Lapua brass but I have a couple two or three bags of the white&blue Win 223 brass.

 

[RegionRat]

Wondering if anyone noticed anything like that with their 223 brass.

Yes, for sure. WIN has cycled back and forth on quality.

There was a time not long ago where all of us shooting XTC would go after WIN brass because it was considered good.

Then, like so many things with corporations going through management upheavals, things changed, and that era ended. The WIN brass we knew and loved wasn't the same and to date this is still true.

I had some recent WIN in 204 Ruger that was very poor quality and had to be sorted and filtered for material defects in the necks. Lucky for me, I scored some Nosler and Norma brass before I had to force myself to use that WIN brass.

That batch of WIN cases has about a 15% reject rate for gross material defects in the necks. If I looked further than the necks, I would probably reject much more if I extended that criteria to the shoulders and bodies.

 

[Fire Dog]

I agree with your ranking of the importance of accuracy results and numbers of reloads possible per case.

When I purchased the Norma brass, it was because I couldn’t find enough Lapua brass for the bolt action rifle I was working up to shoot in 600 yard matches. While I had hoped Norma brass would be closely comparable to Lapua brass, there were a few surprising results. The uniformity of Norma brass is impressive, and I now have enough data to plug into QuickLoad to work up loads for 80 to 85.5gr bullets to evaluate at 600 yards with my rifle. The thinness of the neck wall of Norma brass is of concern. Based on my reload experience with the other three cases (i.e., Lapua brass withstands the greatest number of reloads until neck failure and Lake City brass the fewest), I am anticipating that Norma brass will not withstand many reloads until necks split. Experience will tell.

If the price differential between Norma and Lapua brass persists, Norma brass will still be very attractive to those interested in brass uniformity.

Clean and anneal {AMP} @ time...
Neck/shoulder will outlast the primer pocket...
Even in my wild days of youth when Colt first brought out the AR15 and my friends and I went in for a .223 setup for a Star Progressive Press {copied years later by Dillon} because we were dumping 300-500 rds a weekend we were just using assorted ex-military brass {45* chamfer bit in a drill motor to de-crimp} and we didn't do anything but reload and shoot that brass we were getting at least 6-10 before getting neck cracking.
Powder was cheap, primers were $10-13 a carton and factory seconds from Sierra bought from them at the loading dock when they were on the South side of LA... How many pounds do you want... Weighed on a bathroom scale..!!
Those were the days my friend...!
However, I do note that nothing makes the "Good Ol' Days" so good, as a bad memory...

 

[Kevin1990]

Great job testing and good reporting! I was up in the air between starline and Lapua, but I think I'll get some Norma. Norma USA has bags of 50 for $18. Doesn't say where it's made though.

I never had the pleasure of trying the blue and white bag win brass. However, I bought 10 bags of the red and black bag win brass in .223 for an AR. 5 bags from one lot, and 5 from a other. I took a piece out to inspect it and noticed the flash hole was oblong. I then inspected all 1,000 and around 300 of those had oblong flash holes. Or even worse they were double punched somehow. From 2 different lots. I never inspected any other part of the brass because I decided not to use it.

I ended up taking a 1 inch thick piece of plywood and routered the inside of it out threw the cases in it and epoxied over it. Bought some coffee table legs on Amazon and made a 2x4 foot coffee table for my basement.

 

[Gary in MD]

Curious, has anyone done any work/testing with Winchester brass particularly the old Winchester brass that came in the blue and white bags versus the newer Win brass that comes in the red with black top bag??

This is not exclusive to just 223 brass but I've heard people say they thought the older Win brass that came in the blue and white bags was tougher more durable then the Win brass that comes in the red/black bags. My dad who is in his later 80's and memory not so good swears the Win 6mm brass that came in the white&blue bags was tougher and held primer pockets longer then the newer Win 6mm brass he got in the red&black bags. Wondering if anyone noticed anything like that with their 223 brass. In my 223AI I exclusively use Lapua brass but I have a couple two or three bags of the white&blue Win 223 brass.

I'm a fan of the "Bluebag" Winchester stuff. I use it in a 223, 223ai, a couple 22-250s, 220 Swifts, & 30-06.
I weight sort it and anneal. I usually buy more when it comes up for sale.

 

[ASbobcat]

I couldn’t find any data on Norma brass cases recently entering the USA market as primed cases. So I evaluated the cases compared to Lapua, PPU and Lake City brass that I had on hand. Several of the data graphs from the study are posted below.

The full study draft is posted at:

Norma 223 Remington Brass Compared to Lapua, PPU and Lake City

Methods (draft) used in the study are available at:

Methods

Cartridge load and rifle: 77gr Sierra MatchKing, 23.0gr AR-Comp, GM205M primer, 2.35" COAL. The bolt-action rifle had a 28 inch Krieger 1:7.7 twist barrel with a 223 Wylde chamber.

My preliminary conclusions are: Norma brass was the heaviest case of those tested and had the smallest powder volume capacity. The Norma case also had the narrowest neck thickness. Primed Norma 223 brass appears to use a magnum small rifle primer.

Comments and suggestions for improvement are appreciated.

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Thanks in advance for comments and suggestions for improvement.

Note added August 10, 2023: Information from the supplier (Powder Valley, Inc), indicates that this brass is made in Hungary and the primers are made in Germany.

Thank you for conducting this study. A lot of time and effort.

I have a bulk lot of once fired with staked (not crimped) primers. I am anxious to see what I got.
Should be here today. I will post when I have a chance to inspect it.

 

[ASbobcat]

Norma 223 Rem. High Performance cases made in Sweden are different than the primed Norma 223 Rem cases made in Hungary.
I purchased a 50-count package of 223 Rem. Norma Precision High Performance Cases made in Sweden (lot number 100032820) from MidwayUSA, and the data on virgin cases are below.
Swedish Norma HP cases have significantly greater powder capacity, thicker neck walls, and lower case weight than those for Norma cases from Hungary. Swedish Norma HP cases currently sold in the USA do not have date stamps according to my small sample.
Norma HP cases from Sweden in small numbers cost twice as much as primed Norma cases from Hungary.


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I have a more than a thousand of pieces of LC NATO from many different years.
The neck thicknesses fall into two distinct groups. Most are 11.5 thou, and about 20% are 11.0 thou. None greater than 11.5.
This seems to be different than your results indicate.