Yep, a thousandths and a half is what I meant. Dans, I put the shell holder in the 280 ai box and am thinking about getting a redding competition shell holder kit in replace of it. Most of my calibers use a # 2 shell holder anyway. 243, 308, 280ai, 30-06 just about covers the whitetail gambit.
Non standard 280ai won't bump shoulder
- Thread starter jsthntn247
- Start date
Ed, I know you do not believe I hear you, I hear you, I do, I hear you....hollering, for help, I have to caution you, I have tried to help others, problem, I am not qualified. Others I have tried to help ended with neither of us being better off.
I noticed the illustration you posted does not list head space on the case, the case drawing only has lengths, case length, the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head etc., but, no mention of case head space.. I noticed you hollering about trimming cases, I have case trimmers, I have the Gasey case trimmer, The case body and head of the case hang outside of the case adapter meaning the case sits up on the shoulder of the case, trimming with the Gracey is with total disregard to the length of the case, typing slower, the case sits on the shoulder/datum. For reloaders like me that is not a problem, the Wilson case gage is designed for reloaders that can keep up. The case sits in the L.E. Wilson case gage on the shoulder of the case, the case sits on a datum in the gage, the datum in the case gage made by Wilson has a radius.
I make gages, I make I make datums, I collect datums on occasions I purchase datums. At gun shows I purchase datums by the pound. I purchased 40 pounds of datums for $20.00. I walked up to the table and said “DATUMS!!â€, the dealer responded with “I do not any have datumsâ€, One shopper at the table said “I do not see any datumsâ€, another shopper ask, “What does a datum look like?†Mixed in with the two boxes of datums were a few Lee dies, after paying $20.00 I started removing the Lee dies and returning them to the dealer, he would have no part of it, he explained to me the Lee dies were thrown in for free therefore I did not pay for them and I was not allow to give them back, I did not want to haul all that weight through the parking lot so he made arrangements for me to make a pick up at the front door. Included in the boxes were L.E. Wilson case holders for their case trimmer, there was a case trimmer by Wilson that was newer than the one I have. There were case file case trimmers, sizers, Hollywood Gun Shop dies, old RCBS dies, Pacific dies etc., etc.. There was also bullet puller with a 30 cal. collet.
Back to my Eddiestone M 1917, the chamber from the shoulder/datum is long, normally the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face would be go-gage length. The chamber in one of my M 1917 is .002†longer than a field reject length chamber, The chamber in one of my M1917s is .016†longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. One more time, not a problem for a reloader that can keep up, I form cases for the Eddystone from 280 Remington cases, all that is required to keep up with is to know when to quit forming a mnew shoulder, ‘AGAIN!!, I know, it is called ‘BUMP’ as in bump the shoulder, I am listening, I can hear you holler, I just can not bump the shoulder. I am the only reloader, case former, case sizer that scribes the shoulder/case body juncture when forming cases, my shoulders do not move, they are erased, the shoulder that is formed is a new shoulder, the old shoulder is an artifact, when forming the 280 Remington cases to 30/06 part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder and part of the shoulder becomes part of the neck, that is not bumping that is rectifying or changing.
http://www.matchprep.com/trimmer.htm
I also have the Dillon 1200, It uses a seizer type die as a case holder, and I have case forming/trim dies, money well spent. Then there is that pile of parts and pieces that is made by Lee, there are not many I do not have.
then there is a member that contacted me, he was under the impression you did not like him, and I said “WHAT†I explained to him he should not worry about Ed not liking him, I explained to him , in my opinion, Ed does not even like himself.
The last time I tried to help you you ran behind the skirt of a monitor, and hid, that was the time I recommended the forum decorate the home page with toys like merry to rounds, sea-saws, just any kind of toys, the toys were to warn members signing in to that forum they could encounter children, or adults acting like children. I know, that did not make them happy, but I heard you hollering.
F. Guffey
I noticed the illustration you posted does not list head space on the case, the case drawing only has lengths, case length, the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the case head etc., but, no mention of case head space.. I noticed you hollering about trimming cases, I have case trimmers, I have the Gasey case trimmer, The case body and head of the case hang outside of the case adapter meaning the case sits up on the shoulder of the case, trimming with the Gracey is with total disregard to the length of the case, typing slower, the case sits on the shoulder/datum. For reloaders like me that is not a problem, the Wilson case gage is designed for reloaders that can keep up. The case sits in the L.E. Wilson case gage on the shoulder of the case, the case sits on a datum in the gage, the datum in the case gage made by Wilson has a radius.
I make gages, I make I make datums, I collect datums on occasions I purchase datums. At gun shows I purchase datums by the pound. I purchased 40 pounds of datums for $20.00. I walked up to the table and said “DATUMS!!â€, the dealer responded with “I do not any have datumsâ€, One shopper at the table said “I do not see any datumsâ€, another shopper ask, “What does a datum look like?†Mixed in with the two boxes of datums were a few Lee dies, after paying $20.00 I started removing the Lee dies and returning them to the dealer, he would have no part of it, he explained to me the Lee dies were thrown in for free therefore I did not pay for them and I was not allow to give them back, I did not want to haul all that weight through the parking lot so he made arrangements for me to make a pick up at the front door. Included in the boxes were L.E. Wilson case holders for their case trimmer, there was a case trimmer by Wilson that was newer than the one I have. There were case file case trimmers, sizers, Hollywood Gun Shop dies, old RCBS dies, Pacific dies etc., etc.. There was also bullet puller with a 30 cal. collet.
Back to my Eddiestone M 1917, the chamber from the shoulder/datum is long, normally the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face would be go-gage length. The chamber in one of my M 1917 is .002†longer than a field reject length chamber, The chamber in one of my M1917s is .016†longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. One more time, not a problem for a reloader that can keep up, I form cases for the Eddystone from 280 Remington cases, all that is required to keep up with is to know when to quit forming a mnew shoulder, ‘AGAIN!!, I know, it is called ‘BUMP’ as in bump the shoulder, I am listening, I can hear you holler, I just can not bump the shoulder. I am the only reloader, case former, case sizer that scribes the shoulder/case body juncture when forming cases, my shoulders do not move, they are erased, the shoulder that is formed is a new shoulder, the old shoulder is an artifact, when forming the 280 Remington cases to 30/06 part of the case body becomes part of the shoulder and part of the shoulder becomes part of the neck, that is not bumping that is rectifying or changing.
http://www.matchprep.com/trimmer.htm
I also have the Dillon 1200, It uses a seizer type die as a case holder, and I have case forming/trim dies, money well spent. Then there is that pile of parts and pieces that is made by Lee, there are not many I do not have.
then there is a member that contacted me, he was under the impression you did not like him, and I said “WHAT†I explained to him he should not worry about Ed not liking him, I explained to him , in my opinion, Ed does not even like himself.
The last time I tried to help you you ran behind the skirt of a monitor, and hid, that was the time I recommended the forum decorate the home page with toys like merry to rounds, sea-saws, just any kind of toys, the toys were to warn members signing in to that forum they could encounter children, or adults acting like children. I know, that did not make them happy, but I heard you hollering.
F. Guffey
jsthntn247 said:
jsthntn247, Seems it does not take reloaders long to forget, In the old days reloaders chambered a 280 Remington case and fired it. After firing the 280 Remington case they ejected a fire formed 280 Ackley Improved case. All the planning was done by P.O. Ackley.
Ackley designed the Improved chamber with a long neck, the improved chamber had a longer neck than the parent chamber, meaning, when the 280 Remington case was chambered the short neck of the parent case had to be sized when chambered. Advantage, the sizing of the shoulder to become part of the neck for the new case head spaced the case, meaning the case head spaced on the shoulder neck juncture, when fired the rest of the shoulder and case body was formed.
Back to the feeler gage, to shorten the case from the shoulder to the case head all you have to do is raise the case off the shell holder with a feeler gage, I would suggest .003" first then attempt to chamber, if the case chambers you wil know how much to remove from the top of the shell holder and of bottom of the die.
F. Guffey
bigedp51
fguffey said:
The "illustration" you mentioned is the ANSI/SAAMI drawing of cartridge and chamber specifications for the 30-06 cartridge. It lists the cartridge headspace and chamber headspace dimensions quite clearly.
If you can't read a ANSI/SAAMI drawing how do you ever expect people to take a word you say seriously. Now people will never believe you invented headspace, datums and the feeler gauge. :
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf
Hi 247 hi all
247,well done mate,don't touch your die,keep it as it came from the maker unless you are rich enough to pay for another one;grinding the shell holder is easy and good enough for your need.You made me laugh trying to file the die with a bastard file,you probably have ruined the file,this is heat hardened steel,no file will bite into it....I'm glad you could get to what you wanted to achieve.Cool,a merry Xmas to all of you gentlemen.
247,well done mate,don't touch your die,keep it as it came from the maker unless you are rich enough to pay for another one;grinding the shell holder is easy and good enough for your need.You made me laugh trying to file the die with a bastard file,you probably have ruined the file,this is heat hardened steel,no file will bite into it....I'm glad you could get to what you wanted to achieve.Cool,a merry Xmas to all of you gentlemen.
Ed, read the note section, the chamber has a symbol for head space, the author of the drawing I mentioned did not omit the symbol for head space for the case because the case does not have head space, the case has lengths, again, from the datum to the case head, from the datum to the case mouth and from the mouth of the case to the head of the case.
Anyone familiar with the Wilson case gage understands L. E. Wilson labeled the case gage as a case gage, the Wilson case gage has never been labeled a head space gage. Wilson has been making the case gage for 55 + years, if the case had head space the gage would/could be labeled a head space gage.
I have instructions for the Wilson case gage that goes back to 1955, that was before the internet, back then the gage was a case gage. The instructions included helpful hints, one suggestion recommending using a metal pocket rule as a straight edge, I suggest using the straight edge with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, the straight edge and feeler gage turns the Wilson case gage into a precession gage.
A head space gage can be used as a transfer to verify the accuracy of the Wilson case gage.
F. Guffey
Anyone familiar with the Wilson case gage understands L. E. Wilson labeled the case gage as a case gage, the Wilson case gage has never been labeled a head space gage. Wilson has been making the case gage for 55 + years, if the case had head space the gage would/could be labeled a head space gage.
I have instructions for the Wilson case gage that goes back to 1955, that was before the internet, back then the gage was a case gage. The instructions included helpful hints, one suggestion recommending using a metal pocket rule as a straight edge, I suggest using the straight edge with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, the straight edge and feeler gage turns the Wilson case gage into a precession gage.
A head space gage can be used as a transfer to verify the accuracy of the Wilson case gage.
F. Guffey
CatShooter
DCRYDER said:
What the hell are you talkin' about... I NEVER said ANYTHING is measured from the shoulder to the mouth.
Maybe you need to read it again (maybe 30 times).
"No need to trim the brass any extra - Case length is case length... no matter where the shoulder is."
Now, maybe you can understand what I said!
The cut chamber is long enough that you do NOT have to trim an additional 0.004".
CatShooter
DCRYDER said:
I'm sorry, but I think you got lost or confused somewhere.
This is NOT the 22 PPC-.10 thread... this thread is about the 280 AI - the 280 AI is a much longer case than the itty bitty 22PPC-10 case.
So maybe that is why you are so confused.
The Max 280 AI case length is 2.525" and the min 280 AI chamber is 2.560", which means, AT A MINIMUM, there is a 0.0135" clearance.
So there is no need to trim an extra 0.004"
I am sure that you can understand that.
CatShooter
DCRYDER said:
Mine was a typo (2.525"), yours was a complete failure to comprehend.
DCRYDER
Silver $$ Contributor
2.560" - 2.525" = 0.035" .....not 0.0135"
So either you made 2 typos in 1 mathematical statement or your math is off. I hope you take more time and care with your ballistic "whatever" you have going on.
I suggested to trim x.xxx" extra for x.xxx" that his chamber is short. This is the right thing to do, I stand by it, AND I AM OUT OF HERE!!!!!
So either you made 2 typos in 1 mathematical statement or your math is off. I hope you take more time and care with your ballistic "whatever" you have going on.
I suggested to trim x.xxx" extra for x.xxx" that his chamber is short. This is the right thing to do, I stand by it, AND I AM OUT OF HERE!!!!!
DCRYDER said:
CatShooter said:
I did, I said the case is measured from the shoulder to the mouth of the case. I said the case is measured from the shoulder to the head of the case. I said the case has a length, for those keeping up that is three different lengths, back to the Wilson case gage. a very precession gage. A reloader measures the protrusion of the case head from one end and the case neck from the other end. The Wilson case gage has a datum, the case sits on the datum. A reloader. As difficult as it seems to be the case length from the end of the neck to the case head can be effect if the reloader is able to understand the chamber can be long from the shoulder to the bolt face and be in specification from the shoulder of the chamber to the end of the neck.
Again, I have one rifle that has a long chamber, the chamber is .002" longer than a field reject gage, Instead of trimming .016" from the neck I add .014" to the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case. No, there are no cases outside of cylinder brass that can be used to off set the length of the chamber. I use 280 Remington brass, the 280 Remington case is longer than the 30/06.
"So when I push my shoulder back .100" on my 22ppc short I don't need to trim my brass an additional .100"? that's a mighty long neck"
When I form 30/06 cases from 280 Remington cases I adjust the 30/06 forming die off the shell holder with a feeler gage 1.964". When trimming I add .014" to the length of the case, the case neck does not get longer, the case body does.
Then there is the perception the shoulder is being moved back, that does not happen, the shoulder is erased, the new shoulder is a formed shoulder. Reloaders do not scribe case body/shoulders junctures, the scribed line will indicate the shoulder did not move.
F. Guffey
The cut chamber is long enough that you do NOT have to trim an additional 0.004".
bigedp51
CatShooter
My condolences, it is truly a very sad day for you.............................
People are confusing your postings with fguffey's.
Your going to have to stop posting here or go out and buy a beatup WWI M1917 Enfield rifle that fails headspace testing with a field gauge. You will also need to buy a few dozen datums, feeler gauges, and reinvent the word headspace.
My condolences, it is truly a very sad day for you.............................
People are confusing your postings with fguffey's.
Your going to have to stop posting here or go out and buy a beatup WWI M1917 Enfield rifle that fails headspace testing with a field gauge. You will also need to buy a few dozen datums, feeler gauges, and reinvent the word headspace.
CatShooter
bigedp51 said:CatShooter
My condolences, it is truly a very sad day for you.............................
People are confusing your postings with fguffey's.
Your going to have to stop posting here or go out and buy a beat up WWI M1917 Enfield rifle that fails headspace testing with a field gauge. You will also need to buy a few dozen datums, feeler gauges, and reinvent the word headspace.
I know.. I knew it was going to go down hill when I hit the bottom of my large Folger's coffee container and I don't have any brass to fill it with (yet).
And, to make it even more worser... I made the felony mistake of annealing nine hundred 222 Magnum cases before I trimmed them, so now, I have to trim soft necks and clean them up after
.I actually love 1917's (more than you love SMLE's) and saw a beautiful one with actual figure in the stock, but some dork had ground the "Winchester" off of the receiver ring, and it was "I haveta' think about it"... I thought of getting it for a shooter, but when I went back it was gone.
I think I will go hug a headspace gauge and have some coffee
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