NF COMP & March HM Optics

[johara1]

No question where you stand on NF. Not everyone shares your view

Yes, you are right but if you went through what I did with NF. repair service you would probably agree... I was very happy when they made the NXS and set records with them, I sent one back that started to open up a little for them to fix and it was the last straw, it was only in there a total of 2Hours and they sent back nothing wrong. Just maybe I prefer something works and no BS. story about the mounts and rings is the problem...... jim

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Mirage is the bending of light rays by gases ("air") between you and the target. The gas acts like hundreds of vaporous lenses floating in the air, distorting the rays as they pass thru. The hotter the gas, the more unstable and variable it is, causing more disruption to the rays. The farther away the target is, the more of those "floating gaseous lenses" the rays must pass thru to get to you. The rays get disrupted (bent) by "gaseous lens" #1 at, say, 950 yds, then by gaseous lents #2 at 886, then by #3 at 804, and so on, which means #2 is taking a distorted picture (bundle of rays) and distorting it even more. Then #3 takes that doubly-distorted picture, distorts it some more and passes it on to #4. And so on.

The point being, that the disruption to the rays is happening at 950 yards, 886 yards, 804 yards, etc. There is no scope, no lens system, no lens coating, etc., that is going to "cut thru mirage" better than any other scope, lens system, etc., because to do that the scope would have to "unbend" light rays, which cannot be done. So, you can throw that "attribute" out the window. The only thing you can do to mitigate mirage is to either reduce magnification or wait for a hiatus, a moment when the gasses are distorting the rays the least. Reducing magnification does not do anything to fix the bent rays, it just causes you to notice the problem less.

The eyebox in any scope shrinks when you dial it up to high power (assuming the scope will even go up to high power). So yes, a Comp at 55x is tight to look through. That does not bother me because I want my eye to be perfectly centered when I touch off the round anyway. Moreover, all you have to do is turn the power down to 40 - 45x and the Comp is a dream to look through.

You break a March you are sending it to Japan. You break a Comp you are sending it to Idaho. The big Sightrons are great if you don't mind having a 3-pound pig on top your rifle.

I don't buy the "not holding zero" crap at all. I would have to believe that after many years of successfully making NXS's NF suddenly forgot how to do it with the Comp, their flagship target scope. Neither of my Comps has ever had its zero move, and none of my buddies' ever has either.

The reticles in Comps move when the scope moves in the rings or the rings move or flex, and that's it.

I have NEVER claimed that any kind of glass will "cut thru mirage." My current belief, based on 16 years of observation in F-class at 1000 yards, is that while all riflescopes are affected by mirage, some are less affected than others. My first foray at 1000 yards with a high magnification scope was with a Weaver T-36, 36X40. When the mirage got bad, as it does in the Gulf Coast region, the scope was essentially unusable as the target changed shape and got distorted very badly.

My next riflescope was a NF NSX-12-42X56. An excellent scope and a great improvement in IQ over the T36. I would usually run it a 42X but when the mirage got bad, I would dial down to 30X or just under. Also, we have the nasty habit of starting at crack of dawn at the club and in November-December, the early morning matches made it difficult for me to see the target well during the first relay or if the sky was heavily overcast. So, I looked to an improvement.

My next riflescope was a March-X 5-50X56. It was significantly better in IQ than the NXS and for the next 6 years, I shot it a 40X, without ever changing the magnification, regardless of conditions. There was never any reason to go below 40. I did go to 50X a few times, but I liked it better at 40X when the mirage got intense.

Two years ago, I had the opportunity to compare a March-X 10-60X56 HM next to my March-X 5-50X56. I could tell the difference in IQ and thus acquired a 10-60X56 HM. For the last 18 months or so, I have been running my March-X 10-60X56 HM at 50X, regardless of conditions. Yes, it is affected by mirage, but I the target does not change shape and while the concentric lines are shimmering in the mirage, they are still distinct and I can surgically place the dot of my MTR-5 reticle exactly where I want on the target.

So, over 15 years, I have seen the progression of the IQ in high mag riflescopes. The T-36 with so-so glass had a lousy IQ of the target, unusable at times due to intense mirage. The NXS had much better glass and did a fine job for IQ at 40X until the mirage got going, then I would have to dial back. The ED glass element in the March-X 5-50X56 allowed me to remain at 40X regardless of conditions. The Super-ED glass elements in the March-X 10-60X56 HM allow me to stay at 50X regardless of conditions. Those are my observations and inferences. I may be incorrect in thinking that ED and Super-ED glass appear to be less affected by mirage compared to non-ED glass, but that has been my observation. I have explained my hypothesis and thinking behind WHY this would be so in a longuish thread in the Optics section here. I shan't be repeating it here. That's what Search is for.

All riflescopes are affected by mirage. Every single last one of them. Some are less affected than others. Think of it like BC for bucking wind. All bullets are affected by wind, some less than others.

 

[KY_Windage]

I have NEVER claimed that any kind of glass will "cut thru mirage." My current belief, based on 16 years of observation in F-class at 1000 yards, is that while all riflescopes are affected by mirage, some are less affected than others. My first foray at 1000 yards with a high magnification scope was with a Weaver T-36, 36X40. When the mirage got bad, as it does in the Gulf Coast region, the scope was essentially unusable as the target changed shape and got distorted very badly.

My next riflescope was a NF NSX-12-42X56. An excellent scope and a great improvement in IQ over the T36. I would usually run it a 42X but when the mirage got bad, I would dial down to 30X or just under. Also, we have the nasty habit of starting at crack of dawn at the club and in November-December, the early morning matches made it difficult for me to see the target well during the first relay or if the sky was heavily overcast. So, I looked to an improvement.

My next riflescope was a March-X 5-50X56. It was significantly better in IQ than the NXS and for the next 6 years, I shot it a 40X, without ever changing the magnification, regardless of conditions. There was never any reason to go below 40. I did go to 50X a few times, but I liked it better at 40X when the mirage got intense.

Two years ago, I had the opportunity to compare a March-X 10-60X56 HM next to my March-X 5-50X56. I could tell the difference in IQ and thus acquired a 10-60X56 HM. For the last 18 months or so, I have been running my March-X 10-60X56 HM at 50X, regardless of conditions. Yes, it is affected by mirage, but I the target does not change shape and while the concentric lines are shimmering in the mirage, they are still distinct and I can surgically place the dot of my MTR-5 reticle exactly where I want on the target.

So, over 15 years, I have seen the progression of the IQ in high mag riflescopes. The T-36 with so-so glass had a lousy IQ of the target, unusable at times due to intense mirage. The NXS had much better glass and did a fine job for IQ at 40X until the mirage got going, then I would have to dial back. The ED glass element in the March-X 5-50X56 allowed me to remain at 40X regardless of conditions. The Super-ED glass elements in the March-X 10-60X56 HM allow me to stay at 50X regardless of conditions. Those are my observations and inferences. I may be incorrect in thinking that ED and Super-ED glass appear to be less affected by mirage compared to non-ED glass, but that has been my observation. I have explained my hypothesis and thinking behind WHY this would be so in a longuish thread in the Optics section here. I shan't be repeating it here. That's what Search is for.

All riflescopes are affected by mirage. Every single last one of them. Some are less affected than others. Think of it like BC for bucking wind. All bullets are affected by wind, some less than others.

The better the resolution a scope has, the better it sees through mirage. So yes, a March is going to work better than a T36.

I don't like to dial down for mirage either, at least not much, because you're just fooling yourself -- the mirage effect is exactly the same, you just don't see it if you dial down. I would rather stay at high power and shoot at a bullseye that is continually disappearing and re-appearing, moving and then coming back.

 

[johara1]

If the NF comp is clear and bright why is it they only advertise the exit pupil up to 32 power? With a52 mm objective and the advertised 55 power it can't be very bright at the top.....? jim

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

The better the resolution a scope has, the better it sees through mirage. So yes, a March is going to work better than a T36.

I don't like to dial down for mirage either, at least not much, because you're just fooling yourself -- the mirage effect is exactly the same, you just don't see it if you dial down. I would rather stay at high power and shoot at a bullseye that is continually disappearing and re-appearing, moving and then coming back.

There's a little more to it than that. The difference between the NXS and the March-X 5-50X56 was dramatic and the NXS doesn't have bad glass.

But it's nice to see that you agree with my assessment that mirage affects different glass in different ways.

 

[KY_Windage]

It is not that "mirage affects the glass differently," it is simply that we see better in all conditions with high-resolution glass, whether it is mirage, fog, rain or unheated air. And you keep mentioning ED glass when all ED does is produce better color rendition -- it does nothing for resolution.

And the idea that this scope or that can keep the mirage from moving the target around is simply wrong. Giving enough heat and wind it does not matter scope you have, that prairie dog that is holding perfectly still is going to appear to be dancing all over your scope picture.

Because the distortion is happening hundreds of yards in front of you, and there is no scope, no lens, no coating that can fix it.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

It is not that "mirage affects the glass differently," it is simply that we see better in all conditions with high-resolution glass, whether it is mirage, fog, rain or unheated air. And you keep mentioning ED glass when all ED does is produce better color rendition -- it does nothing for resolution.

And the idea that this scope or that can keep the mirage from moving the target around is simply wrong. Giving enough heat and wind it does not matter scope you have, that prairie dog that is holding perfectly still is going to appear to be dancing all over your scope picture.

Because the distortion is happening hundreds of yards in front of you, and there is no scope, no lens, no coating that can fix it.

The highlighted statement is incorrect. Visible light is a combination of colors coming in at various wavelengths. Non ED or Fluorite glass will focus the various wavelengths slightly differently, cause color fringing also know as chromatic aberration (CA). A great example of this manifestation is looking at the rings on the target and seeing hair on the lines. With ED, Super-ED and (gasp) fluorite crystal glass, the hairyness subsides to a greater extent depending on the glass.

This CA control quality is what I believe helps reduce the effect of the mirage on the IQ. When you have color fringing and you mix it up further with mirage, the IQ degenerates faster than when the color fringing is controlled.

 

[KY_Windage]

This CA control quality is what I believe helps reduce the effect of the mirage on the IQ. When you have color fringing and you mix it up further with mirage, the IQ degenerates faster than when the color fringing is controlled.

I have never seen color fringing with any colors other than red or orange. I also have plenty of NF ATACR's and Comp's with incredible ED glass. The color rendition is better than with my NXS's but they do not "see through" mirage any better. And that is with a lot of days shooting p-dogs every year, with the prairie boiling with mirage on the hottest days, to compare them.

The idea that you are going to keep that p-dog from dancing completely off your reticle from mirage with ED glass is sadly mistaken. Would that you could.

 

[Texas Solo]

Just a note here: The March 10-60X52 is NOT an HM scope; it does not use the Super-ED lenses, instead it has a single ED glass lens element.

You sure?
March website says it has Super ED.

Am considering one, but now I'm confused.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

You sure?
March website says it has Super ED.

Am considering one, but now I'm confused.

Yeah, I'm sure. This is from the marchscope.com website:

D60V52TI (MOA, Tactical, Illumi)​

Tactical Model (Illuminated)

March 10-60x52
PopuIar scope for benchrest shooting. Lightweight scope with variable power.

・6X Zoom in SFP, MOA
・ED Glass
・30mm diameter body
・52mm objective lens
・Focus from 10 yard to infinity
・Scope body fully machined from aluminum ingot
・All Japanese metal parts with no plastic part except for minimum essentials such as an insulator
・Argon gas filled for internal stability
・Top quality multi lens coating where the transmittance is very near 100%
・Water repellent lens coating


Please understand there is a difference between the 10-60X52 and the 10-60X56.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

You sure?
March website says it has Super ED.

Am considering one, but now I'm confused.

It is very confusing as just about all scopes are touting some sore of ED glass, even the specs shown below are from the Arken EP-5 in 7-35 which is selling for $749.99 with "ED Japanese glass"

Product Details:
ARKEN OPTICS products are designed to combine quality, performance, and precision with tremendous value. Experience the next level of precision and performance with the EP-5 Gen 2 7-35x56 FFP (First Focal Plane) scope - a cutting-edge addition to our lineup. Building upon the excellence of the EP series, the EP-5 Gen 2 7-35x56 was designed to enhance performance for long range shooting scenarios. With a versatile 7-35x zoom range, ED Japanese Glass, the innovative Variable Precision Reticle (VPR), and inherited ARKEN ZERO STOP (AZS) tactical turrets, the EP-5 Gen 2 7-35x56 is resetting the bar for the industry where innovation meets perfection.

Lifetime Warranty
Precision Tracking Guaranteed
ED Japanese Glass
First Focal Plane (FFP)
Zero Stop

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

You sure?
March website says it has Super ED.

Am considering one, but now I'm confused.

Let me add to that terse response above. The 10-60X52 is an excellent riflescope and I see it on the line at F-class matches and I also know that a lot of benchresters use it. It is light at 25 ounces and it is dependable and durable with a 30mm tube. The March-X 10-60X56 HM is heavier at 32 ounces and it is bigger. It's a fabulous design and very solid. Beyond the increase from 52mm to 56mm in the objective, the main tube of the March-X (like all March-X and -FX) is 34mm because the tube wall went from 2mm thick to 4mm, essentially doubling the thickness of the wall. The March-X 10-60X56 HM was the very first riflescope anywhere to user Super-ED lenses. It has seen been joined by a few other March riflescopes in that league.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Let me add to that terse response above. The 10-60X52 is an excellent riflescope and I see it on the line at F-class matches and I also know that a lot of benchresters use it. It is light at 25 ounces and it is dependable and durable with a 30mm tube. The March-X 10-60X56 HM is heavier at 32 ounces and it is bigger. It's a fabulous design and very solid. Beyond the increase from 52mm to 56mm in the objective, the main tube of the March-X (like all March-X and -FX) is 34mm because the tube wall went from 2mm thick to 4mm, essentially doubling the thickness of the wall. The March-X 10-60X56 HM was the very first riflescope anywhere to user Super-ED lenses. It has seen been joined by a few other March riflescopes in that league.

I believe the largest factor contributing to the confusion is that there is not an actual spec for ED or even Super ED glass. Reading through the verbiage on the March site, they claim their Super ED glass is closer to Fluorite than ED but really these are all tag lines by manufacturers with nothing actually measurable.

 

[Ranger188]

You sure?
March website says it has Super ED.

Am considering one, but now I'm confused.

The March 10-60x52 is a different scope from the
10-60x56 HM

You have to be a little careful, they have scopes (models) that look almost the same.
Just slightly different features.


March 10-60x52
PopuIar scope for benchrest shooting. Lightweight scope with variable power.

・6X Zoom in SFP, MOA
・ED Glass <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< here
・30mm diameter body <<<<<<<<<<<<<< here
・52mm objective lens <<<<<<<<<<<<<< here
・Focus from 10 yard to infinity
・Scope body fully machined from aluminum ingot
・All Japanese metal parts with no plastic part except for minimum essentials such as an insulator
・Argon gas filled for internal stability
・Top quality multi lens coating where the transmittance is very near 100%
・Water repellent lens coating



10-60x56
The 10-60x56 is a HM (high master) is has the better glass
March-X "High Master" 10x-60x56mm
The High Master has Super ED lens which offers utmost clarity and natural color right to the edge of the image. The 56mm objective and the 34 mm tube offer high resolution with excellent reliability and ruggedness. The March-X High Master 10x-60x56mm is suitable for short-range competitions such as Field target and also long-range competitions such as F-class. The focus range adjustment is from 10 yards to infinity, offering reliable adjustment for any situation.

・6X Zoom in SFP, MOA
・34mm diameter body <<<<<<<<<<<<<< here
・56mm objective lens <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< here
・Temperature Anti-Drift Lens System
・High Master lens system (Super ED lenses) <<<<<<<<<<<<here