NF COMP & March HM Optics

[johara1]

No question where you stand on NF. Not everyone shares your view

Yes, you are right but if you went through what I did with NF. repair service you would probably agree... I was very happy when they made the NXS and set records with them, I sent one back that started to open up a little for them to fix and it was the last straw, it was only in there a total of 2Hours and they sent back nothing wrong. Just maybe I prefer something works and no BS. story about the mounts and rings is the problem...... jim

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

Mirage is the bending of light rays by gases ("air") between you and the target. The gas acts like hundreds of vaporous lenses floating in the air, distorting the rays as they pass thru. The hotter the gas, the more unstable and variable it is, causing more disruption to the rays. The farther away the target is, the more of those "floating gaseous lenses" the rays must pass thru to get to you. The rays get disrupted (bent) by "gaseous lens" #1 at, say, 950 yds, then by gaseous lents #2 at 886, then by #3 at 804, and so on, which means #2 is taking a distorted picture (bundle of rays) and distorting it even more. Then #3 takes that doubly-distorted picture, distorts it some more and passes it on to #4. And so on.

The point being, that the disruption to the rays is happening at 950 yards, 886 yards, 804 yards, etc. There is no scope, no lens system, no lens coating, etc., that is going to "cut thru mirage" better than any other scope, lens system, etc., because to do that the scope would have to "unbend" light rays, which cannot be done. So, you can throw that "attribute" out the window. The only thing you can do to mitigate mirage is to either reduce magnification or wait for a hiatus, a moment when the gasses are distorting the rays the least. Reducing magnification does not do anything to fix the bent rays, it just causes you to notice the problem less.

The eyebox in any scope shrinks when you dial it up to high power (assuming the scope will even go up to high power). So yes, a Comp at 55x is tight to look through. That does not bother me because I want my eye to be perfectly centered when I touch off the round anyway. Moreover, all you have to do is turn the power down to 40 - 45x and the Comp is a dream to look through.

You break a March you are sending it to Japan. You break a Comp you are sending it to Idaho. The big Sightrons are great if you don't mind having a 3-pound pig on top your rifle.

I don't buy the "not holding zero" crap at all. I would have to believe that after many years of successfully making NXS's NF suddenly forgot how to do it with the Comp, their flagship target scope. Neither of my Comps has ever had its zero move, and none of my buddies' ever has either.

The reticles in Comps move when the scope moves in the rings or the rings move or flex, and that's it.

I have NEVER claimed that any kind of glass will "cut thru mirage." My current belief, based on 16 years of observation in F-class at 1000 yards, is that while all riflescopes are affected by mirage, some are less affected than others. My first foray at 1000 yards with a high magnification scope was with a Weaver T-36, 36X40. When the mirage got bad, as it does in the Gulf Coast region, the scope was essentially unusable as the target changed shape and got distorted very badly.

My next riflescope was a NF NSX-12-42X56. An excellent scope and a great improvement in IQ over the T36. I would usually run it a 42X but when the mirage got bad, I would dial down to 30X or just under. Also, we have the nasty habit of starting at crack of dawn at the club and in November-December, the early morning matches made it difficult for me to see the target well during the first relay or if the sky was heavily overcast. So, I looked to an improvement.

My next riflescope was a March-X 5-50X56. It was significantly better in IQ than the NXS and for the next 6 years, I shot it a 40X, without ever changing the magnification, regardless of conditions. There was never any reason to go below 40. I did go to 50X a few times, but I liked it better at 40X when the mirage got intense.

Two years ago, I had the opportunity to compare a March-X 10-60X56 HM next to my March-X 5-50X56. I could tell the difference in IQ and thus acquired a 10-60X56 HM. For the last 18 months or so, I have been running my March-X 10-60X56 HM at 50X, regardless of conditions. Yes, it is affected by mirage, but I the target does not change shape and while the concentric lines are shimmering in the mirage, they are still distinct and I can surgically place the dot of my MTR-5 reticle exactly where I want on the target.

So, over 15 years, I have seen the progression of the IQ in high mag riflescopes. The T-36 with so-so glass had a lousy IQ of the target, unusable at times due to intense mirage. The NXS had much better glass and did a fine job for IQ at 40X until the mirage got going, then I would have to dial back. The ED glass element in the March-X 5-50X56 allowed me to remain at 40X regardless of conditions. The Super-ED glass elements in the March-X 10-60X56 HM allow me to stay at 50X regardless of conditions. Those are my observations and inferences. I may be incorrect in thinking that ED and Super-ED glass appear to be less affected by mirage compared to non-ED glass, but that has been my observation. I have explained my hypothesis and thinking behind WHY this would be so in a longuish thread in the Optics section here. I shan't be repeating it here. That's what Search is for.

All riflescopes are affected by mirage. Every single last one of them. Some are less affected than others. Think of it like BC for bucking wind. All bullets are affected by wind, some less than others.

 

[KY_Windage]

I have NEVER claimed that any kind of glass will "cut thru mirage." My current belief, based on 16 years of observation in F-class at 1000 yards, is that while all riflescopes are affected by mirage, some are less affected than others. My first foray at 1000 yards with a high magnification scope was with a Weaver T-36, 36X40. When the mirage got bad, as it does in the Gulf Coast region, the scope was essentially unusable as the target changed shape and got distorted very badly.

My next riflescope was a NF NSX-12-42X56. An excellent scope and a great improvement in IQ over the T36. I would usually run it a 42X but when the mirage got bad, I would dial down to 30X or just under. Also, we have the nasty habit of starting at crack of dawn at the club and in November-December, the early morning matches made it difficult for me to see the target well during the first relay or if the sky was heavily overcast. So, I looked to an improvement.

My next riflescope was a March-X 5-50X56. It was significantly better in IQ than the NXS and for the next 6 years, I shot it a 40X, without ever changing the magnification, regardless of conditions. There was never any reason to go below 40. I did go to 50X a few times, but I liked it better at 40X when the mirage got intense.

Two years ago, I had the opportunity to compare a March-X 10-60X56 HM next to my March-X 5-50X56. I could tell the difference in IQ and thus acquired a 10-60X56 HM. For the last 18 months or so, I have been running my March-X 10-60X56 HM at 50X, regardless of conditions. Yes, it is affected by mirage, but I the target does not change shape and while the concentric lines are shimmering in the mirage, they are still distinct and I can surgically place the dot of my MTR-5 reticle exactly where I want on the target.

So, over 15 years, I have seen the progression of the IQ in high mag riflescopes. The T-36 with so-so glass had a lousy IQ of the target, unusable at times due to intense mirage. The NXS had much better glass and did a fine job for IQ at 40X until the mirage got going, then I would have to dial back. The ED glass element in the March-X 5-50X56 allowed me to remain at 40X regardless of conditions. The Super-ED glass elements in the March-X 10-60X56 HM allow me to stay at 50X regardless of conditions. Those are my observations and inferences. I may be incorrect in thinking that ED and Super-ED glass appear to be less affected by mirage compared to non-ED glass, but that has been my observation. I have explained my hypothesis and thinking behind WHY this would be so in a longuish thread in the Optics section here. I shan't be repeating it here. That's what Search is for.

All riflescopes are affected by mirage. Every single last one of them. Some are less affected than others. Think of it like BC for bucking wind. All bullets are affected by wind, some less than others.

The better the resolution a scope has, the better it sees through mirage. So yes, a March is going to work better than a T36.

I don't like to dial down for mirage either, at least not much, because you're just fooling yourself -- the mirage effect is exactly the same, you just don't see it if you dial down. I would rather stay at high power and shoot at a bullseye that is continually disappearing and re-appearing, moving and then coming back.

 

[johara1]

If the NF comp is clear and bright why is it they only advertise the exit pupil up to 32 power? With a52 mm objective and the advertised 55 power it can't be very bright at the top.....? jim

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

The better the resolution a scope has, the better it sees through mirage. So yes, a March is going to work better than a T36.

I don't like to dial down for mirage either, at least not much, because you're just fooling yourself -- the mirage effect is exactly the same, you just don't see it if you dial down. I would rather stay at high power and shoot at a bullseye that is continually disappearing and re-appearing, moving and then coming back.

There's a little more to it than that. The difference between the NXS and the March-X 5-50X56 was dramatic and the NXS doesn't have bad glass.

But it's nice to see that you agree with my assessment that mirage affects different glass in different ways.

 

[KY_Windage]

It is not that "mirage affects the glass differently," it is simply that we see better in all conditions with high-resolution glass, whether it is mirage, fog, rain or unheated air. And you keep mentioning ED glass when all ED does is produce better color rendition -- it does nothing for resolution.

And the idea that this scope or that can keep the mirage from moving the target around is simply wrong. Giving enough heat and wind it does not matter scope you have, that prairie dog that is holding perfectly still is going to appear to be dancing all over your scope picture.

Because the distortion is happening hundreds of yards in front of you, and there is no scope, no lens, no coating that can fix it.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

It is not that "mirage affects the glass differently," it is simply that we see better in all conditions with high-resolution glass, whether it is mirage, fog, rain or unheated air. And you keep mentioning ED glass when all ED does is produce better color rendition -- it does nothing for resolution.

And the idea that this scope or that can keep the mirage from moving the target around is simply wrong. Giving enough heat and wind it does not matter scope you have, that prairie dog that is holding perfectly still is going to appear to be dancing all over your scope picture.

Because the distortion is happening hundreds of yards in front of you, and there is no scope, no lens, no coating that can fix it.

The highlighted statement is incorrect. Visible light is a combination of colors coming in at various wavelengths. Non ED or Fluorite glass will focus the various wavelengths slightly differently, cause color fringing also know as chromatic aberration (CA). A great example of this manifestation is looking at the rings on the target and seeing hair on the lines. With ED, Super-ED and (gasp) fluorite crystal glass, the hairyness subsides to a greater extent depending on the glass.

This CA control quality is what I believe helps reduce the effect of the mirage on the IQ. When you have color fringing and you mix it up further with mirage, the IQ degenerates faster than when the color fringing is controlled.

 

[KY_Windage]

This CA control quality is what I believe helps reduce the effect of the mirage on the IQ. When you have color fringing and you mix it up further with mirage, the IQ degenerates faster than when the color fringing is controlled.

I have never seen color fringing with any colors other than red or orange. I also have plenty of NF ATACR's and Comp's with incredible ED glass. The color rendition is better than with my NXS's but they do not "see through" mirage any better. And that is with a lot of days shooting p-dogs every year, with the prairie boiling with mirage on the hottest days, to compare them.

The idea that you are going to keep that p-dog from dancing completely off your reticle from mirage with ED glass is sadly mistaken. Would that you could.