New NRA F-Class High Power Rifle Committee

[CA_Shooter]

The NRA selecting a president, who then selects board members who think just like themselves does not seem as though it is a good way to have proper representation.

We should take a nod from our founding fathers.

FClass shooters should be the people voting for the board members.

And the way to possibly define a voting FClass shooter is someone who competes in a match with greater than X (for example > 50) competitors, or possibly a state championship.

 

[Jeff Porter]

You assume either NRA or CMP wants representation of the shooters on the committees. I have not observed that in several years from either entity. Token representation and minimal input.

 

[memilanuk]

The NRA selecting a president, who then selects board members who think just like themselves does not seem as though it is a good way to have proper representation.

We should take a nod from our founding fathers.

FClass shooters should be the people voting for the board members.

And the way to possibly define a voting FClass shooter is someone who competes in a match with greater than X (for example > 50) competitors, or possibly a state championship.

Sounds great... let us know when you get that sorted out.

 

[Heman]

They have had shooters on the HP committee. Issue is its very tribal with some only having experience in their area and then people sitting on it for year. So what you ended up with was only a couple shooters on the committee who know about FClass, so the others well I don't give a shit so stuff wouldn't get done. Same with other disciplines. This is what happens when the board is populated be specialists who are on their because of their outstanding shooting ability. Not saying all they're have been some people on there who are very well rounded. For that committee or an organizations committee like that to function you need people who are match director types who see both sides (sling/fclass) and it needs to be open. The HP Chairman hasn't done us any favors as he is just concerned about keeping his position and not speaking up against the NRA President because (his words) he'd lose his position, better to captain the Titanic and rid it down than speak up and maybe get the course changed. This is along with the NRA still holding on to people and not getting new blood in (OP is another example). The issue is their suggestions (HP Committee) have to get approved by the paid employees and the NRA board itself. So yes Tom Seilck, Karl Malone, etc. with all their HP and FClass experience vote to approve the changes it is a VERY lethargic process.

I don't blame the F-Class shooters at all for wanting out of that mess and being able to do their own thing. For years at the Committee level they were treated as the bastard step children and at matches and on national teams, some former Bald Eagle members were notoriously bad for doing this. You have people wearing Bull Shit shirts (one being a guy who runs the NRA Nationals and matches at a range down south) if it were easy it would be F-Class which is total crap and people who are downright nasty and negative to FClass. Then those same people who do this they wonder why people (F-Class) are on edge. So this caused the divide. The blame is not just on sling on the fclass side stuff has been allowed to get away from the original intent and it has turned into almost benchrest (never the intent) so it is hard for them to operate under HP match formats such as time limits, clearing the line etc. They allowed their rules to change and get away from the initial intent so they could shoot better score etc.

But the issue you potentially have in dividing is this. Say a club has 4 days a month of prone/fclass shooting. With being separate and their own rulebook there could be enough change that you can no longer run them together. So now instead of everyone getting 4 days a month you now have 2 days for fclass and 2 days for sling. Based on everyones declining numbers splitting like that may not be cost effective, especially given the increased costs we are seeing and just declining numbers in general, and so now clubs may be losing money on rental fees or their general membership wondering why the rifle range or shot gun range is closed for 10 people to shoot a rifle match. This goes back to the central problem decisions are made in certain areas and not looking at how it affects the whole sport at large.

I'd type more but I have to get ready for work.

 

[Warren Dean]

Morgan,

All it would take is for ICFRA to recognize another organization as the organization of the US Natinoal Team. The only thing preventing the Palma team moving to another is the fact the NRA owns the palma trophy. As one person told me if that wasn't the case they would leave to another.

I respectfully disagree that the CMP is the future. For the CMP it is all about making money, why the games matches were jockeyed around over the board matches before the divorce. Yes he wants to put the NRA under and has publicly stated that but they are a money making organization. Both organizations are centered around big bureaucracies and the power/wealth that the people at the top can attain. Look at what the CMP BOD make. I'd be willing to bet if the M1 and ammo sales weren't drying up and they were still making a killing on those then they wouldn't be as interested in recreating the NRA competitions. Mark has publicly stated if it makes money he will do it, if it doesn't he is not interested. If the Camp Perry CMP pseudo NRA nationals don't bring in big numbers be interesting to see how long they keep them going or if they condense them.

Also what people dislike about the NRA is you don't know who is making rules and how, and what is discussed. CMP is no different actually maybe worse. When the whole Monard coat rule came down there was what three or four different rule books that came out before Perry?

Also just look at how they treat some of the people that work for them. There was one very established shooter who was going to run a clinic for them last year, he criticized some of the stuff they (CMP) did and they fired him last year. That is no different than what the NRA does.

As with the shooters who have national team intentions (who end up being match directors at most of the ranges) or by the CMP sponsored shooters who push the CMP they all seem to have some personal gain by pushing their respective organizations. They push those respective organizations because it looks better for them and helps support what they want to do but maybe what isn't better for the sport as a whole. The previous comment of well the NRA is the ruling body so we should just go along is the problem. National championships are but one small part the vast majority of people in high power sling or fclass don't attend the national level matches they shoot club matches. Especially now with the increase costs and so on large multiple day matches with their lodging costs and so on are probably going to start becoming a thing of the past except for those very focused few. Which on the NRA side was starting to happen before the move.

For the record as you probably know I have no love loss for either organization and wish I could figure out how to modify my signature to remove the NRA/CMP portion in it.

Well put Shawn. You make great points. An old quote about "The devil you know" came to mind reading your post.

 

[DE-F-Open]

This is true, NRA is the sanctioning body today. So if the NRA goes under, as many are anticipating with all their litigation. Then what? Icfra isn’t going to want USA participation because of a technicality?

All “precision” shooting sports should be looking to CMP as the future.

NRA is NOT going under...

 

[Liven The Dream]

I have no dog in this NRA/CMP post.
I do now shot F/Open. I shoot a local Range that change to CMP Match Program.
As for F/Class the talk on the Range is as follows.
We would like the F/Class Rules to be changed.
#1 No more SEB Style Rests.
#2 Very one shoots off a Bi-Pod
FT/R still .223/.308
F/Open any safe Caliber
Weight of Rifles equal (to be determined ).

This is just talk by some people, point being you never no what changes may bring ?

 

[Acyr]

They have had shooters on the HP committee. Issue is its very tribal with some only having experience in their area and then people sitting on it for year. So what you ended up with was only a couple shooters on the committee who know about FClass, so the others well I don't give a shit so stuff wouldn't get done. Same with other disciplines. This is what happens when the board is populated be specialists who are on their because of their outstanding shooting ability. Not saying all they're have been some people on there who are very well rounded. For that committee or an organizations committee like that to function you need people who are match director types who see both sides (sling/fclass) and it needs to be open. The HP Chairman hasn't done us any favors as he is just concerned about keeping his position and not speaking up against the NRA President because (his words) he'd lose his position, better to captain the Titanic and rid it down than speak up and maybe get the course changed. This is along with the NRA still holding on to people and not getting new blood in (OP is another example). The issue is their suggestions (HP Committee) have to get approved by the paid employees and the NRA board itself. So yes Tom Seilck, Karl Malone, etc. with all their HP and FClass experience vote to approve the changes it is a VERY lethargic process.

I don't blame the F-Class shooters at all for wanting out of that mess and being able to do their own thing. For years at the Committee level they were treated as the bastard step children and at matches and on national teams, some former Bald Eagle members were notoriously bad for doing this. You have people wearing Bull Shit shirts (one being a guy who runs the NRA Nationals and matches at a range down south) if it were easy it would be F-Class which is total crap and people who are downright nasty and negative to FClass. Then those same people who do this they wonder why people (F-Class) are on edge. So this caused the divide. The blame is not just on sling on the fclass side stuff has been allowed to get away from the original intent and it has turned into almost benchrest (never the intent) so it is hard for them to operate under HP match formats such as time limits, clearing the line etc. They allowed their rules to change and get away from the initial intent so they could shoot better score etc.

But the issue you potentially have in dividing is this. Say a club has 4 days a month of prone/fclass shooting. With being separate and their own rulebook there could be enough change that you can no longer run them together. So now instead of everyone getting 4 days a month you now have 2 days for fclass and 2 days for sling. Based on everyones declining numbers splitting like that may not be cost effective, especially given the increased costs we are seeing and just declining numbers in general, and so now clubs may be losing money on rental fees or their general membership wondering why the rifle range or shot gun range is closed for 10 people to shoot a rifle match. This goes back to the central problem decisions are made in certain areas and not looking at how it affects the whole sport at large.

I'd type more but I have to get ready for work.

Shawn, you have hit the nail on the head. Well done.
Andy

 

[mgdietrich]

NRA is NOT going under...

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40 million deficit for 2022, that doesn't seem like it can continue much longer.
60 million in legal fees in 1 year.....

Mr Sigler- you should be connected as anyone to the goings on of the NRA. These don't seem like trivial issues.

 

[ryanjay11]

I'd like to personally thank all the Highpower Match Directors and shooters that welcomed me to shoot F-Class alongside them the past 15 years. I plan to continue this regardless of the sanctioning organization, and welcome them to shoot any match I run.

 

[1813benny]

How You Run Up Millions In Legal Bills

In the New York case, NRA moved to dismiss on the ground it was described in the complaint as “National Rifle Association of America, inc.,” when its legal name didn’t have &#8220…

nraindanger.wordpress.com

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Attorney-client privilege protects the ability of attorneys and clients to communicate, and generally results in those conversations being “off limits” to courts and to their opponents.…

nraindanger.wordpress.com

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NRA’s attorneys are still fighting to keep the Frenkel Report, from 2007, secret. Having lost before the Special Master, lost a second time before the Special Master, and lost before the judg…

nraindanger.wordpress.com

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We jumped the gun when we early said that NRA had demanded jury trial. But now it’s done just that. NRA’s demand says that the NY Attorney General had demanded jury trial only as to som…

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nraindanger.wordpress.com

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NRA has moved to seal (file but keep secret from the public) the 2003 Frenkel report, which we’ve mentioned before. That report must be really hot, given that NRA leadership is fighting hard …

nraindanger.wordpress.com

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In the New York litigation, NRA leadership is trying like crazy to keep the 2003 Frenken report secret. The Special Master ruled that it had to be revealed. NRA’s attorneys re-argued the poin…

nraindanger.wordpress.com

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Here it is, submitted last week. We see some interesting things. The organization is getting hammered financially. Contributions fell from $105 million to $84 million, and total revenue from $282 m…

nraindanger.wordpress.com

NRA Financials Through End of August

They are disastrous. Compare the Year To Date Actual column with the Year to Date as budgeted. The YTD budgeted would show the best estimates as of the beginning of 2022, meaning the anticipated tr…

nraindanger.wordpress.com

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Amended in light of comment, my math was off, and the proper math shows the situation is worse than we’d seen. Since the previous post, we’ve had time to reflect. The financial report s…

nraindanger.wordpress.com

40 million deficit for 2022, that doesn't seem like it can continue much longer.
60 million in legal fees in 1 year.....

Mr Sigler- you should be connected as anyone to the goings on of the NRA. These don't seem like trivial issues.

Morgan,

You forgot the 2023 spring fashion season is rapidly approaching and Wayne needs a fresh closet full of Armani suits.....

40 million deficit for 2022
60 million in legal fees in 1 year
figure 20 million in pending bankruptcy litigation along with about 500k in suits and matching shoes....

I think that even if the NRA survives, their devotion to the shooting sports will continue to diminish and the funds will be consumed elsewhere in the organization.

Real solutions are always painful.

Regards,
ken

 

[Robert G]

I'd like to personally thank all the Highpower Match Directors and shooters that welcomed me to shoot F-Class alongside them the past 15 years. I plan to continue this regardless of the sanctioning organization, and welcome them to shoot any match I run.

This is what it boils down to right here, regardless of sanctioning bodies, commitees, etc.
Everyone wants to participate but few want to facilitate. Thank and support your local Match Directors often. They are the ones making it happen.

Robert

 

[Heman]

Not wanting to further hijack this thread I started another new thread with a third option.
All I will say is the automation is going to be pretty nice, especially if you run ETs.

 

[40-60may]

Jeff that is the same target as metric prone. Its fun for sure.

The A33 doesn’t work well for 22 F Class it was designed for iron sights years ago . Trying to score 10 shots inside the 10 is difficult as best. the 22 f class associations out of Oklahoma City developed a version of the A33 target that uses the exact ring dimensions, eliminating the 5 ring out, with black rings so the shots can be seen. The target has one sighter and 4 bulls that require 5 shot, the format it similar to the 22 NRA Palma target. They sell the targets at their cost and can furnish target boards too. They’re listed in the smallbore division on the OKC gun club website. They only shoot at 100yds it’s exactly like HP F-Class using the same rules. They get 20 -30 at monthly match, more at their state match

 

[d0nkey]

Most of the competitive shooting sports are full of old guys with bad eyes. If you want to see shooters that aren't sipping the Geritol then go visit a PRS match. That's where the kids are. Does NRA and CMP gives a rats butt about PRS? Nope. And the PRS folks don't give a rats butt about the NRA, CMP, F Class, HP, or sling shooters either. Pick up any shooting magazine and it will be full of rifle pics and articles pertaining to PRS. You rarely ever see a F class or sling rig in them because those are old and dying grandpa's sports. Here in NC PRS match locations far exceed any other rifle shooting venue.

I agree.

I’ve been shooting PRS on and off (mostly off) for about 15 years, and honestly… you're not wrong in some ways. Most PRS shooters don’t care much about the NRA, CMP, F-Class, or sling stuff—and it goes both ways.

The big difference isn’t age, it’s accessibility and exposure. PRS made itself easy to get into and easy to see. You’ve got club matches everywhere, online registration, digital scoring, strong social media, YouTube, sponsors, the whole thing. New shooters can stumble into PRS without even trying.

F-Class, on the other hand, feels more like a hidden club. If you’re not already looking for it, you’ll never find it. There’s almost no marketing, very little online presence, and it often comes off as unwelcoming to outsiders—whether that’s intentional or not. Case in point: a lot of p2p business in F-Class is still done with paper checks. That tells you who the system is built for.

IMO, PRS didn’t replace F-Class. It just moved with the times. F-Class stayed traditional, and the people running it seem mostly okay with that. That’s fine—but it explains why it stays small and niche while PRS keeps pulling in new blood.

That’s my two cents.

 

[323]

I agree.

I’ve been shooting PRS on and off (mostly off) for about 15 years, and honestly… you're not wrong in some ways. Most PRS shooters don’t care much about the NRA, CMP, F-Class, or sling stuff—and it goes both ways.

The big difference isn’t age, it’s accessibility and exposure. PRS made itself easy to get into and easy to see. You’ve got club matches everywhere, online registration, digital scoring, strong social media, YouTube, sponsors, the whole thing. New shooters can stumble into PRS without even trying.

F-Class, on the other hand, feels more like a hidden club. If you’re not already looking for it, you’ll never find it. There’s almost no marketing, very little online presence, and it often comes off as unwelcoming to outsiders—whether that’s intentional or not. Case in point: a lot of p2p business in F-Class is still done with paper checks. That tells you who the system is built for.

IMO, PRS didn’t replace F-Class. It just moved with the times. F-Class stayed traditional, and the people running it seem mostly okay with that. That’s fine—but it explains why it stays small and niche while PRS keeps pulling in new blood.

That’s my two cents.

NRL Hunter is another one that’s growing fast. All events they have are sold out in hours if not a day or two. I shot a NRL Hunter match this past summer wasn’t my cup of tea. Would I do it again maybe, we did have a good time bsing with other people from different parts of the country.. The match they did up here in Alaska one of the top NRL shooters and content creator came to it. They had shooters from all over the country including Ireland. This match was out in BFE Alaska no major towns within 40-50 miles it was sold out I had to buy a ticket from a guy who couldn’t go. We hold LR matches up here not in bfe hell we can’t even get the PNW guys to come up and shoot our state championship match.

 

[Downeast]

I get the feeling (general opinion?) that shooting sports not affiliated or regulated by the NRA are growing and thriving while NRA supported sports are stagnant and becoming irrelevant. I "play" F class but the nearest clubs hosting competitions are 3-4 hours away. However, everyone I've spoken too have been very helpful and have invited me to come shoot their matches. It is not uncommon to have these clubs referred to as "Fudd" clubs.

Here in the "East" there are very few places where you can have a 1,000 yard range with the appropriate facilities to host an F class match. That and the fact that there is no money in it. Many facilities prefer to offer PRS/tactical courses ($$) or require training sessions ($$) to become qualified to shoot beyond a few hundred yards.