New NRA F-Class High Power Rifle Committee

[davidjoe]

The CMP is a federally (Congressionally) chartered program with an emphasis on youth safety education and marksmanship. While it is specifically not a department or agency of the United States, it works with them, as does the follow on Corporation for the Promotion of Rifle Practice & Firearms Safety.

As to F-Class, the language below may indicate why disciplines like it and benchrest and such have not been more actively pursued by the CMP.

From its legislative charter:

40725. National Matches and small-arms firing school​

(a) Annual Competition.—An annual competition called the "National Matches" and consisting of rifle and pistol matches for a national trophy, medals, and other prizes shall be held as prescribed by the Secretary of the Army.

In addition to this, the CMP is a Congressionally designated repository for the distribution of military surplus weapons to civilians.

When we consider the two points taken together, 1) that CMP’s match programs would literally be prescribed or at least approved by the Army, along with 2) the Army’s surplus weapons residing with the CMP, then it is not surprising that the CMP isn’t enthusiastic about F-Class.

Ours is the height of military non-uniformity. We are all privateers making and using our one-off rifles with a barrage of aids and accoutrements that I cannot envision the Secretary of the Army either appreciating or embracing. Who wants to take the lead in explaining how an F-Open front rest promotes individual marksmanship to the Army, and asking the Army to bless “this one” but prohibit that one, its bag is too small or too hard? Our entire discipline could be said to be one giant “workaround” on the Army’s notion of traditional marksmanship.

 

[T.Rhodes]

Generally I don't comment, and I wrote an entire essay on why this is good. But in light of not causing any drama, I deleted it. If you don't see why this is a good thing and why it is necessary you have never been to DC and sit in on a high power committee meeting as a F class representative.

How about the Cliff Notes version of your essay? I'm not up on all this but like to hear from those that are informed/experienced.

 

[Stumpy1]

How about the Cliff Notes version of your essay? I'm not up on all this but like to hear from those that are informed/experienced.

Agree -I am curious as well. It seems to me like conventional sling and F-Class 'could' be well represented in a single committee. I don't see how creating more bureaucracy is going to make things 'better' -especially with separate committees that would then have to negotiate between them anyway. Unless the intent is to form separate disciplines in a world that is already under attack and shrinking in many ways.

Frank

 

[Doug Beach]

Seems like separate committees will lead to separate rule books, leading to matches that are not compatible with sling matches. So at the local level you get two smaller groups of shooters running two separate matches, while trying to share the same range, and much of the same equipment. Doesn’t seem like a recipe for success, or happiness.
As the guy who runs our local matches (and a 28 year sling shooter), I’d like to know what rule changes are seen as necessary in the F community, or otherwise how being separated will lead to improvement.

 

[Jeff Porter]

CMP doesn't give 2 shits about F Class. All it takes is one look at their official score card. It just says F Class. No distinction between Open and TR. We're just another thorn in the side of sling shooters.

Dont assume malice where ignorance can be assigned with regards to CMP.

When I shot at one of the first mid range prone matches at the CMP Park in Talledega, they did not believe that there could be unlimited sighters in the first stage. I had to pull up a NRA rule book and show them. MD's had never shot in or run a midrange match before. The next month they changed the program to allow unlimted sighters first stage.

As CMP has historically had mainly a Service Rifle XTC focus that is only recently expanding into match rifles , smallbore and pistol matches since the divorce from NRA in 2016. ( And the depletion of the M1's and ammo for sale cheap)

It isnt that they dont give a shit, it is they dont have a clue. I will agree with Morgan that their long term horizon for competition support is slightly better than the NRA's.

 

[Twdmar]

When we consider the two points taken together, 1) that CMP’s match programs would literally be prescribed or at least approved by the Army, along with 2) the Army’s surplus weapons residing with the CMP, then it is not surprising that the CMP isn’t enthusiastic about F-Class.

Ours is the height of military non-uniformity. We are all privateers making and using our one-off rifles with a barrage of aids and accoutrements that I cannot envision the Secretary of the Army either appreciating or embracing. Who wants to take the lead in explaining how an F-Open front rest promotes individual marksmanship to the Army, and asking the Army to bless “this one” but prohibit that one, its bag is too small or too hard? Our entire discipline could be said to be one giant “workaround” on the Army’s notion of traditional marksmanship.

The army doesn't really care what the cmp does as far as matches. The CMP is a corporation that is allowed certain privileges because of federal laws related to marksmanship. Being a corporation, it is attempting to adapt to changes.
Part of the CMP's ability to make money comes from sales of surplus rifles but they know its a limited resource. That's part of the reason for changes in their match program, part of because more dates opened up when the NRA had to leave Camp Perry.
Now that CMP has started holding long range matches, if they see a market for providing further support for F-class matches, they will move to capitalize on that.
But like was stated before, they don't always know what they are doing and their employees are not all shooters. One thing about the the CMP though is view the shooters somewhat like customers and consider their feedback. F class shooters should not be afraid to reach out to the cmp either.
I hope an F-class committee only brings positive change and if f class shooters have more of a voice it may help. It may not be enough a bad idea for f class shooters to build momentum with the CMP as well as the NRA.
One thing I will disagree with is the poster who thinks f-class striking out on its own is a good idea. There just are not enough shooters out there

 

[Killick]

Generally I don't comment, and I wrote an entire essay on why this is good. But in light of not causing any drama, I deleted it. If you don't see why this is a good thing and why it is necessary you have never been to DC and sit in on a high power committee meeting as a F class representative.

I agree with Dan. Representation is a good thing, I think the Founding Fathers had something to say about that. For good or bad the NRA is the ruling body for our sport on a national level. F-Class is a growing and thriving element of High Power competition. I started out as a sling shooter and gravitated to F-Class for wrist issues. The good natured verbal combat between the disciplines is just a fact of life. If you have some deep seated animosity toward sling shooting in general you ought to try it just to see where they're coming from...pssst, that target is HUGE!
Martin T

 

[mgdietrich]

Generally I don't comment, and I wrote an entire essay on why this is good. But in light of not causing any drama, I deleted it. If you don't see why this is a good thing and why it is necessary you have never been to DC and sit in on a high power committee meeting as a F class representative.

Dan:
I would love to hear your perspective. This is a main reason why I think CMP is the best long term (and I did not feel that way just a few short years ago).

The NRA has always kept these meetings secret, no report out. So unless you knew someone on the committee we as shooters (customers) have no idea what is going on.

Sorry to hear your impression also is negative, but if we don’t get that info out then NRA is not forced to change. Even though today I don’t think they have the ability to change anyway.

 

[Jdne5b]

CMP has added a new sport/rule book this year(Action Pistol) and will be running the Bianchi cup instead of the NRA. After years of abuse and mismanagement of NRA AP/Bianchi Cup by the NRA, CMP has their work cut out for them to rebuild.

Ive been impressed with the actions taken thus far to startup the new (to CMP) competitive division, the rules and subsequent revisions to the rules based on competitor input/comments. I look forward to see how they run the match in May.

If CMP wants to get further involved in prone shooting (Fclass) Im all for it at this point.

 

[DR_2297]

CMP has added a new sport/rule book this year(Action Pistol) and will be running the Bianchi cup instead of the NRA. After years of abuse and mismanagement of NRA AP/Bianchi Cup by the NRA, CMP has their work cut out for them to rebuild.

Ive been impressed with the actions taken thus far to startup the new (to CMP) competitive division, the rules and subsequent revisions to the rules based on competitor input/comments. I look forward to see how they run the match in May.

If CMP wants to get further involved in prone shooting (Fclass) Im all for it at this point.

CMP has added a mid range program and has established LR programs that include F class. It has surprised me that participation has been so low @ Camp Perry LR the past few years in the F class ranks.

CMP is not perfect, they are growing and changing but you can at least speak to them and they listen. NRA on the other hand… if I could get my $ back for my life membership I wouldn’t blink an eye. NRA competitions is as worthless as any org out there today….

 

[Jeff Porter]

And...... CMP added .22 Rimfire F-Class rules in its smallbore rule book for 2023. (Specfies the International Target (300 ISSF reduced for 100. Tough little target. )

 

[Heman]

And...... CMP added .22 Rimfire F-Class rules in its smallbore rule book for 2023. (Specfies the International Target (300 ISSF reduced for 100. Tough little target. )

Jeff that is the same target as metric prone. Its fun for sure.

 

[XTR]

looking down the road this tangent has taken…

The NRA is the sanctioning body recognized by ICFRA. Good luck getting that moved to CMP. That is important if ya wanna compete for the world team championship. The US team that competes is the US team recognized by the NRA.

and….

I was dabbling in Service Rifle when the NRA/CMP divorce went down, the controversy over meteor shield shooting coats, and scoped rifles happened. My impression of the CMP based on that time is that they can be more arbitrary and capricious than the NRA, and their rule making process is at least as screwed up.

 

[Heman]

looking down the road this tangent has taken…

The NRA is the sanctioning body recognized by ICFRA. Good luck getting that moved to CMP. That is important if ya wanna compete for the world team championship. The US team that competes is the US team recognized by the NRA.

and….

I was dabbling in Service Rifle when the NRA/CMP divorce went down, the controversy over meteor shield shooting coats, and scoped rifles happened. My impression of the CMP based on that time is that they can be more arbitrary and capricious than the NRA, and their rule making process is at least as screwed up.

The love for CMP is driven by the service rifle DR badge. The love for NRA is driven by those who want to do the national team thing. Both organizations have their issues.

 

[davidjoe]

looking down the road this tangent has taken…

The NRA is the sanctioning body recognized by ICFRA. Good luck getting that moved to CMP. That is important if ya wanna compete for the world team championship. The US team that competes is the US team recognized by the NRA.

and….

I was dabbling in Service Rifle when the NRA/CMP divorce went down, the controversy over meteor shield shooting coats, and scoped rifles happened. My impression of the CMP based on that time is that they can be more arbitrary and capricious than the NRA, and their rule making process is at least as screwed up.

Also, I would imagine the NRA Whittington Shooting Center could be less receptive to the CMP holding national or world matches there.

 

[Heman]

Also, I would imagine the NRA Whittington Shooting Center could be less receptive to the CMP holding national or world matches there.

They aren't very receptive to NRA matches being held there.

 

[Aero]

Whittington will take anybody's money as long as the range and dates you want are open.

 

[mgdietrich]

Also, I would imagine the NRA Whittington Shooting Center could be less receptive to the CMP holding national or world matches there.

Nra Whittington center has nothing to do with NRA competitions. They are separate entities. You can have one without the other. NRA competitions has to schedule matches at Whittington center just like any other org, they do not get a preference.

 

[mgdietrich]

looking down the road this tangent has taken…

The NRA is the sanctioning body recognized by ICFRA. Good luck getting that moved to CMP. That is important if ya wanna compete for the world team championship. The US team that competes is the US team recognized by the NRA.

and….

I was dabbling in Service Rifle when the NRA/CMP divorce went down, the controversy over meteor shield shooting coats, and scoped rifles happened. My impression of the CMP based on that time is that they can be more arbitrary and capricious than the NRA, and their rule making process is at least as screwed up.

This is true, NRA is the sanctioning body today. So if the NRA goes under, as many are anticipating with all their litigation. Then what? Icfra isn’t going to want USA participation because of a technicality?

All “precision” shooting sports should be looking to CMP as the future.

 

[Heman]

This is true, NRA is the sanctioning body today. So if the NRA goes under, as many are anticipating with all their litigation. Then what? Icfra isn’t going to want USA participation because of a technicality?

All “precision” shooting sports should be looking to CMP as the future.

Morgan,

All it would take is for ICFRA to recognize another organization as the organization of the US Natinoal Team. The only thing preventing the Palma team moving to another is the fact the NRA owns the palma trophy. As one person told me if that wasn't the case they would leave to another.

I respectfully disagree that the CMP is the future. For the CMP it is all about making money, why the games matches were jockeyed around over the board matches before the divorce. Yes he wants to put the NRA under and has publicly stated that but they are a money making organization. Both organizations are centered around big bureaucracies and the power/wealth that the people at the top can attain. Look at what the CMP BOD make. I'd be willing to bet if the M1 and ammo sales weren't drying up and they were still making a killing on those then they wouldn't be as interested in recreating the NRA competitions. Mark has publicly stated if it makes money he will do it, if it doesn't he is not interested. If the Camp Perry CMP pseudo NRA nationals don't bring in big numbers be interesting to see how long they keep them going or if they condense them.

Also what people dislike about the NRA is you don't know who is making rules and how, and what is discussed. CMP is no different actually maybe worse. When the whole Monard coat rule came down there was what three or four different rule books that came out before Perry?

Also just look at how they treat some of the people that work for them. There was one very established shooter who was going to run a clinic for them last year, he criticized some of the stuff they (CMP) did and they fired him last year. That is no different than what the NRA does.

As with the shooters who have national team intentions (who end up being match directors at most of the ranges) or by the CMP sponsored shooters who push the CMP they all seem to have some personal gain by pushing their respective organizations. They push those respective organizations because it looks better for them and helps support what they want to do but maybe what isn't better for the sport as a whole. The previous comment of well the NRA is the ruling body so we should just go along is the problem. National championships are but one small part the vast majority of people in high power sling or fclass don't attend the national level matches they shoot club matches. Especially now with the increase costs and so on large multiple day matches with their lodging costs and so on are probably going to start becoming a thing of the past except for those very focused few. Which on the NRA side was starting to happen before the move.

For the record as you probably know I have no love loss for either organization and wish I could figure out how to modify my signature to remove the NRA/CMP portion in it.