New gun with new ammo and have zero headspace change after firing?

[Richard Coody]

So I understand why people say it may not need to be bumped after the first firing and may take a couple firing for it to grow to the max length. But I don't understand how that applies to the OP who said his Virgin Brass is the same as his once fired brass, that sounds like there is no growth happening at all and thus is already at max dimension.

well if that fired brass chambers easily that would be a wonderful thing. brass that doesn't grow.

sometimes you find that after the first firing the base to shoulder datum measurement is actually shorter than an unfired case.

at any rate until fired brass is tight chambering there is no need for a shoulder bump. set your die up to bump the shoulder before it is fully fireformed and you have shortened the life of that brass considerably.

 

[Uncle Ed]

I would not have a new reloader take apart his bolt to check case feel on chambering. Because as the brass is repeatedly fired the brass will get harder and spring back more. Meaning the initial feel method will change as the brass ages.

The OP has a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and can measure a fired case and a resized case and this is all he needs right now. Also if the OP buys a new resizing die everything can change in the sizing process.

If the OP can not bump his case shoulders back he might have a skinny chamber and a fat die or a bad shell holder. Meaning the die is not reducing the case diameter enough to squeeze the shoulder forward.

Therefore he either buys a stuck case remover and checks his shell holder. Then place a .020 feeler gauge between the die and shell holder until he feels resistance closing the bolt and then work down in feeler gauge thickness.

Or if he buys a new die he will be starting over and we do not know what the OP runs into.

KISS - Keep it simple stupid....................we have a new reloader and need to keep it simple.

 

[CharlieNC]

To properly size your brass, you need to define the chamber spec vs arbitrarily bumping brass. A simple method to measure the "zero headspace" is to partially insert a primer into empty brass, chamber, and gently close bolt to finish seating the primer. Remove and measure comparator to primer to obtain the zero headspace. Size brass .001 to .003, or as you wish, shorter than the zero headspace. No logic in arbitrarily chasing a moving target.

 

[Uncle Ed]

To properly size your brass, you need to define the chamber spec vs arbitrarily bumping brass. A simple method to measure the "zero headspace" is to partially insert a primer into empty brass, chamber, and gently close bolt to finish seating the primer. Remove and measure comparator to primer to obtain the zero headspace. Size brass .001 to .003, or as you wish, shorter than the zero headspace. No logic in arbitrarily chasing a moving target.

Where have I heard this method before?????

Measure a new or resized case from the case mouth to the base of the case, and write it down.

Now using a fired spent primer that is flat across it base start the primer into the primer pocket just using your fingers.

Now chamber the case and let the bolt face seat the primer and remove the case.

Now measure the case again from the base of the primer to the case mouth and write it down.

Now subtract the first case measurement from the second and this is your head clearance or the air space between the bolt face and the rear of the case. On a resized case the head clearance should match the amount of shoulder bump of the resizing dies setting.

And if you have a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge and measure from the base of the seated primer this will be your chambers actual headspace measurment. And from this measurment you adjust the die for the amount of shoulder bump needed. And this method does not require taking the bolt apart and then going by feel closing the bolt on a resized case.

P.S. The fingers in the photos belong to me and have been posting this method for over 20 years.
And I call it the cheap bastards headspace gauge method. And most cartridges have .010 between the GO gauge and the Field reject gauge.

 

[CharlieNC]

Yep I read this method around 10 years ago, kudos to whomever originated it. This is the first measurement I take on a new rifle/barrel.

 

[Uncle Ed]

Yep I read this method around 10 years ago, kudos to whomever originated it. This is the first measurement I take on a new rifle/barrel.

You must be almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am.

 

[CharlieNC]

You must be almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am.

Well I'm certainly old enough and have my first and only wife for nearly 50 years now! So at least doing something right.

 

[noobie]

Good Morning,
If I may chime in"
number 1
Please do not attempt to strip a Tikka bolt, if you make a mistake it's near impossible to get it back together!
Number 2 I believe Tikka has a Euro CIP chamber not SAMMI
number 3- get a Wilson case gauge
Number 4 learn how to use it
Number-5 you haven't mentioned getting a case stuck, not sure were that came from, how did you ruin a heat treated , case harden Die ? I can't even do that.
Number-6 there's easy ways to set up Dies and then there is the interweb ways.
BTW welcome

Well ruined the die isn't the word. The case is stuck in it and won't come out. Was using the imperial lube. This was just case of lowering the die way too much trying to get the shoulder to bump. It was not going to bump period. The case is smaller than the minimum.

 

[joshb]

“On a resized case the head clearance should match the amount of shoulder bump of the resizing dies setting.”

Hmmmmm. I’m not in that boat.

 

[divingin]

Well ruined the die isn't the word. The case is stuck in it and won't come out. Was using the imperial lube. This was just case of lowering the die way too much trying to get the shoulder to bump. It was not going to bump period. The case is smaller than the minimum.

Get a stuck case remover. They're around $20, I think. As long as you some meat left in the case head, you thread the case head, and use a screw and spacer to draw the case out.

You can make your own with a #7 drill bit, a 1/4-20 tap, a 5/8" nut (larger may work as well, as long as it catches the die but not the case), a 1" to 1.5" 1/4-20 cap screw, and a couple of 1/4" flat washers (you may need fender washers if using a larger nut.)

Procedure: Remove the die from the press and secure in a vise. Back out the decapping rod as much as possible. Drill and tap through the primer pocket (try and make sure you get all the way through.) Place the nut over the case head. Put the flat washers on the cap screw, put the cap screw through the nut, and thread into the case. Keep cranking to draw the case out.

Good luck!

 

[Bc'z]

Well ruined the die isn't the word. The case is stuck in it and won't come out. Was using the imperial lube. This was just case of lowering the die way too much trying to get the shoulder to bump. It was not going to bump period. The case is smaller than the minimum.

STUCK CASE REMOVER!!
It's really rather simple, as the lube is still between case and die.
Screw die in press from bottom of frame so as case head is facing up.
Drill out primer pocket and tap hole. With a tap matching the thread pitch of bolt to be used. Place a socket over die I installed a washer over top of socket so as bolt head has something to get purchase.
As you tighten bolt case WILL COME OUT.
It cannot resist the force of the screw.
You may need a new decapping rod as i vent mine using less than intelligent method trying to remove case.
You can cut case open to retrieve expander button if you were using one.
Trust me it's simple, just keep drill bit and tap straight.

 

[Bc'z]

Get a stuck case remover. They're around $20, I think. As long as you some meat left in the case head, you thread the case head, and use a screw and spacer to draw the case out.

You can make your own with a #7 drill bit, a 1/4-20 tap, a 5/8" nut (larger may work as well, as long as it catches the die but not the case), a 1" to 1.5" 1/4-20 cap screw, and a couple of 1/4" flat washers (you may need fender washers if using a larger nut.)

Procedure: Remove the die from the press and secure in a vise. Back out the decapping rod as much as possible. Drill and tap through the primer pocket (try and make sure you get all the way through.) Place the nut over the case head. Put the flat washers on the cap screw, put the cap screw through the nut, and thread into the case. Keep cranking to draw the case out.

Good luck!

Ya beat me to it.
But repetition creates perfection!

 

[Riesel]

Well OP, are you learning anything??

 

[Uncle Ed]

Chambers and dies vary in size, a skinny chamber and a fat die may not squeeze the case shoulder forward. But a fat chamber and a skinny die will squeeze the case shoulder forward.

And if the case shoulder isn't touched by the die then keep shooting the case and full length resizing it. Two things can happen, the die will eventually push the shoulder back the desired amount. Or the case will make the bolt hard to close because the shoulder is never touched by the die.

Below for some reason your die is not pushing the case shoulder back below the red dotted line. And most dies will squeeze the shoulder forward and push the shoulder back more than needed if the die contacts the shell holder.

You could measure a "fired" case at three points along the case body and measure at the same points after sizing and see how much the diameter is reduced.

 

[Ron Blain]

Well ruined the die isn't the word. The case is stuck in it and won't come out. Was using the imperial lube. This was just case of lowering the die way too much trying to get the shoulder to bump. It was not going to bump period. The case is smaller than the minimum.

My first disaster was with 30-06 also back in '72. Believe me you are not the first to have a stuck case and all of the frustration that goes along with it. You can invest in a stuck case removal tool, the RCBS version and other work fine. On my case the head ripped off and I was able to twist and mangle the brass till it came out. I was using Lee paste case lube and I promptly stuck another case. You can try removing it yourself using assorted tools or you can send the die to the die manufacturer and they will remove the stuck case. The merit here is they will also inspect the die and clean it up.

As to the case gauge you are using it is a comparator type affair. You measure a case before you size it and after you begin sizing setting up your die. You subtract your after number from your before number and that will tell you how much the case has changed distance from case head to shoulder datum point. The numbers you get are not the actual case dimension because as mentioned the HORNADY - LOCK-N-LOAD™ HEADSPACE GAUGE TOOL the accuracy of the bushings leaves a little to be desired. It does fine as to before and after measurements as far as giving you the difference but the numbers are not actual real world measurements.

Here is what I am getting at using a 308 Winchester as an example with the 0.400 bushing.

Using a known headspace gauge we can measure it.

The gauge is actually a 308 Winchester 1.630" Go gauge but note the reading.

The gauge is reading 1.624" or actually 0.006" lower than the truth. Now if I measure a 1.634" No/Go gauge the change is 0.004" which is the true difference between the two gauges.

I have noticed when measuring a 30-06 headspace gauge that a 2.049" Go gauge measures 2.045" or about 0.004" low. I have also noticed all of these things vary from box to box. The only way to know what your gauge is actually measuring, as was mentioned, would be to invest in a headspace gauge like those pictured. There is really no need for that as the gauge will do what you want it to do and work as a comparator.

My experience has been that factory ammunition generally comes in with a shoulder datum to case head dimension of 2.045" to 2.049" and using standard 30-06 dies setup according to manufacture's specifications the die will resize your brass to right around factory dimensions and SAAMI specifications. I would settle for that until you develop a good handle on resizing and measuring.

Additionally as was well covered if your fired brass will chamber in the rifle and chamber without a problem, easy bolt close on a bolt gun, there is no need to full length resize your brass. Neck sizing only should work just fine.

Ron

 

[Ron Blain]

Really good images there UncleEd. Thanks for sharing them.

Ron

 

[Uncle Ed]

If the OP had only started reloading with a Lee target loader below he would have asked why his neck sized cases wouldn't chamber and eject. It was at this point in 1973 I bought my Rockchucker press and RCBS full length die and bought a manual and actually read the front part of the manual.

 

[Homerange]

If the OP had only started reloading with a Lee target loader below he would have asked why his neck sized cases wouldn't chamber and eject. It was at this point in 1973 I bought my Rockchucker press and RCBS full length die and bought a manual and actually read the front part of the manual.

And yet the 308 one of those I have of about the same vintage never gave any issues bar the inside neck reamer took out too much brass for a standard neck diameter chamber.
In a rifle with a custom neck it would've been the ducks nuts.

I chased my tail around for a while before being given some old FL dies and swapped over to them and accuracy issues disappeared.

I probably should look at getting the neck of that die turned out to SAMMI spec.

 

[noobie]

You sure could however
should he ever use that Die again? Or just move on like the rest of us did.

I'm just moving on. Hornady's Custom Grade Die's are not relatively expensive and you get free bullets with a new purchase that make the die basically free.

 

[noobie]

Push the handle out with your thumb. Some are tighter than others so you may have to wiggle the firing pin assembly while you push harder. It’ll come.
View attachment 1088709
Once the handle is out, the firing pin assembly will slide out. You can put the handle back in to use the bolt to check brass and “bullet in the lands”. Without the pressure of the firing pin assembly, it may be loose and fall out. Don’t let it hit the concrete!
View attachment 1088710
View attachment 1088711

To put it back together, just reverse the process. When you need to rotate the assembly clockwise to get the cover back on, the Allen wrench gives you the leverage. Rotate clockwise until it stops, slide the cover back on, then rotate it counter clockwise until the cocking arm falls into the small locating indent.
View attachment 1088707
View attachment 1088708
You’re done! See? Easy peezy!

There is a good video on you tube from someone as well. I ran into it a few months ago. Thank you!