New Berger .224 Bullet

[garandman]

Was wondering if more distance traveled in contact with the bore added to more wear on the jacket. Newb question.

I'm no expert. So what I say is a guess/2nd hand information.

But theoretically, the bullet jacket conforms to the lands and grooves and the distance traveled in the barrel doesn't actually create significant additional friction due to extra barrel length.

My understanding is that excessive rpm of the spinning bullet in its exterior ballistics is what causes jacket separation. But I would be glad to defer to others... like Berger, Or people who have far more technical expertise than myself.

 

[BronzeArcher]

But I would be glad to defer to others... like Berger, Or people who have far more technical expertise than myself.

The work I've read suggests a contributing factor is heating and melting of the lead under the jacket, which (combined with high spin rate and weakened jacket) leads to those grey puffs between 50 and 100 yards out. Our experience that coating with HBN seems to reduce the issue supports the notion that heating from bore contact is a contributing factor. It's hard to shorten a rifle barrel to test the idea. But coating with HBN is relatively easy. It's one of those problems with too many variables, so an experimental design that only changes one variable is hard to come by.

 

[D.Stone]

Did anyone figure out how to get the 223 Remington to be shoot well at 1000 yards in Palma? I know Laurie Holland was playing around with it a few years ago and was doing okay with it. I kind of like the idea of a 223 Palma/Mid Range Rifle.

 

[10at6]

I don't see any big differences in the bearing surfaces of the hybrids vs. others. I'm sure Berger has thought this out. At reasonable twists, velocities, you won't have a problem. Shot 1000's of 52 gr match bullets out of a 223 in a 7 twist and they always make it to the target.

Worn out bores is where I have seen them (any bullet) come apart.

 

[linebaugh]

I went for years without bullet failures with bergers and some were spun up really high RPM. I have no idea what makes one barrel okay and the next blow bullets but I know when it happens you might as well give up on keeping bullets together. For years I didn't even think blowing the bergers was a real thing, boy was I wrong!
I was very surprised to hear of the SMKs popping. I have not had a single SMK blow up in flight and I ran them through a 22250AI at 3150fps on a seven twist.

 

[USMCDOC]

Did anyone figure out how to get the 223 Remington to be shoot well at 1000 yards in Palma? I know Laurie Holland was playing around with it a few years ago and was doing okay with it. I kind of like the idea of a 223 Palma/Mid Range Rifle.

Shot at Camp Perry

 

[rcgill]

View attachment 1131421
Shot at Camp Perry

Load data?
Year fired?

 

[Laurie]

Did anyone figure out how to get the 223 Remington to be shoot well at 1000 yards in Palma? I know Laurie Holland was playing around with it a few years ago and was doing okay with it. I kind of like the idea of a 223 Palma/Mid Range Rifle.

I certainly got the 223 to shoot well in F/TR at out to 1,000 and even 1,100 yards with 90s. (1,225 yards in a 10 round practice at Blair Atholl on the 1,000 yard F target too on one memorable occasion in 2011!) Others in the US have moved the practice and knowledge-base on a lot in F/TR since those days, many of them members of this forum.

In principle, if a Heavy Palma 7-twist 30-inch barrel 223 F/TR rifle shoots well at these distances, I can't see why it shouldn't do as well in sling shooting if all else applies. Nobody in the UK uses it for serious national sling shooting that I've ever heard of. If nothing else, our really big matches all use issued GB NRA procured 155gn 308 and the only 223 available from this source is a 69gn 'match' model which won't cut much ballistic mustard against the 155 SMK @ a nominal 2,930 fps MV. Also, IIRC in ICFRA regs, sling / Palma shooting is restricted to 'less than 156gn bullets' in 308 Win; 81gn for 223 Rem. (Hence the 155.5gn Berger 0.308" BT Fullbore and 80.5gn 0.224" equivalent.)

How the Berger 80.5 and equivalent 80s from other manufacturers stack up against 155/155.5s in 308 Win in Palma (assuming handloads are allowed) in real life as opposed to ballistics program results, I wouldn't presume to speculate. The people most likely to have real experience would be Canadian TR (prone/sling 'Target Rifle' same equipment as Palma, but all distances 200 to 1,000) given the 223's popularity in that country. Unless their Rules have changed I think the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association rules limit 223 F/TR to the less than 81gn ceiling too. Maybe Australia and New Zealand too given wide 223 use there in their variants of F/TR, some crossover to their sling shooters?

In 'US Rules' matches allowing handloads with no bullet weight restrictions, the 90s (and the new 95 SMK + Berger 85.5gn) are again allowed .... but 308 Win shooters can also go heavier too in their loads. So, it really comes down to recoil tolerance and management. The beauty of the 223 is its light kick and torque, in 18lb F/TR rifles barely noticeable, so if you can shoot a Palma weight sling rifle significantly better than with the 308 version (or as in many cases become able to sling shoot at all because of age/health/injury issues) then the 223 might be very competitive.

 

[D.Stone]

I certainly got the 223 to shoot well in F/TR at out to 1,000 and even 1,100 yards with 90s. (1,225 yards in a 10 round practice at Blair Atholl on the 1,000 yard F target too on one memorable occasion in 2011!) Others in the US have moved the practice and knowledge-base on a lot in F/TR since those days, many of them members of this forum.

In principle, if a Heavy Palma 7-twist 30-inch barrel 223 F/TR rifle shoots well at these distances, I can't see why it shouldn't do as well in sling shooting if all else applies. Nobody in the UK uses it for serious national sling shooting that I've ever heard of. If nothing else, our really big matches all use issued GB NRA procured 155gn 308 and the only 223 available from this source is a 69gn 'match' model which won't cut much ballistic mustard against the 155 SMK @ a nominal 2,930 fps MV. Also, IIRC in ICFRA regs, sling / Palma shooting is restricted to 'less than 156gn bullets' in 308 Win; 81gn for 223 Rem. (Hence the 155.5gn Berger 0.308" BT Fullbore and 80.5gn 0.224" equivalent.)

How the Berger 80.5 and equivalent 80s from other manufacturers stack up against 155/155.5s in 308 Win in Palma (assuming handloads are allowed) in real life as opposed to ballistics program results, I wouldn't presume to speculate. The people most likely to have real experience would be Canadian TR (prone/sling 'Target Rifle' same equipment as Palma, but all distances 200 to 1,000) given the 223's popularity in that country. Unless their Rules have changed I think the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association rules limit 223 F/TR to the less than 81gn ceiling too. Maybe Australia and New Zealand too given wide 223 use there in their variants of F/TR, some crossover to their sling shooters?

In 'US Rules' matches allowing handloads with no bullet weight restrictions, the 90s (and the new 95 SMK + Berger 85.5gn) are again allowed .... but 308 Win shooters can also go heavier too in their loads. So, it really comes down to recoil tolerance and management. The beauty of the 223 is its light kick and torque, in 18lb F/TR rifles barely noticeable, so if you can shoot a Palma weight sling rifle significantly better than with the 308 version (or as in many cases become able to sling shoot at all because of age/health/injury issues) then the 223 might be very competitive.

I always found the idea appealing because I could presumably load a 5 gallon bucket of ammo and just go practice to my little hearts content.

 

[morpheus]

View attachment 1131421
Shot at Camp Perry

Yep. That was a great score for ORSA for the Palma team match!

 

[memilanuk]

I always found the idea appealing because I could presumably load a 5 gallon bucket of ammo and just go practice to my little hearts content.

...or actually travel with a full load out of ammo for an extended national level event (eg SWN, FCNC) without having to screw around with shipping part of your ammo separately from the 5 kg allowed by most airlines.

 

[SHall]

Does anyone know if any distributors have recieved a shipment of the new Berger .224, 85.5 Hybrid yet?

 

[garandman]

Does anyone know if any distributors have recieved a shipment of the new Berger .224, 85.5 Hybrid yet?

Midway is on backorder expected delivery tomorrow. We'll see....

 

[r bose]

Did anyone figure out how to get the 223 Remington to be shoot well at 1000 yards in Palma? I know Laurie Holland was playing around with it a few years ago and was doing okay with it. I kind of like the idea of a 223 Palma/Mid Range Rifle.

Shot my 223 palma rifle yesterday with 90g Berger VLD's at 600 in a local club match yesterday. As of last night 2723 rounds thru it and still holding the prone X ring. My cleaning regime is OK but not excessive. I might go 3 matches, 200 rounds, between cleanings. I'm the lucky one that has never had a problem with bullet blowups. 7 twist Bartlien 5R rifling 30". Personally, I think the 5R is much easier on the jackets than a 4 grove. I use RL-15 powder.

 

[r bose]

I certainly got the 223 to shoot well in F/TR at out to 1,000 and even 1,100 yards with 90s. (1,225 yards in a 10 round practice at Blair Atholl on the 1,000 yard F target too on one memorable occasion in 2011!) Others in the US have moved the practice and knowledge-base on a lot in F/TR since those days, many of them members of this forum.

In principle, if a Heavy Palma 7-twist 30-inch barrel 223 F/TR rifle shoots well at these distances, I can't see why it shouldn't do as well in sling shooting if all else applies. Nobody in the UK uses it for serious national sling shooting that I've ever heard of. If nothing else, our really big matches all use issued GB NRA procured 155gn 308 and the only 223 available from this source is a 69gn 'match' model which won't cut much ballistic mustard against the 155 SMK @ a nominal 2,930 fps MV. Also, IIRC in ICFRA regs, sling / Palma shooting is restricted to 'less than 156gn bullets' in 308 Win; 81gn for 223 Rem. (Hence the 155.5gn Berger 0.308" BT Fullbore and 80.5gn 0.224" equivalent.)

How the Berger 80.5 and equivalent 80s from other manufacturers stack up against 155/155.5s in 308 Win in Palma (assuming handloads are allowed) in real life as opposed to ballistics program results, I wouldn't presume to speculate. The people most likely to have real experience would be Canadian TR (prone/sling 'Target Rifle' same equipment as Palma, but all distances 200 to 1,000) given the 223's popularity in that country. Unless their Rules have changed I think the Dominion of Canada Rifle Association rules limit 223 F/TR to the less than 81gn ceiling too. Maybe Australia and New Zealand too given wide 223 use there in their variants of F/TR, some crossover to their sling shooters?

In 'US Rules' matches allowing handloads with no bullet weight restrictions, the 90s (and the new 95 SMK + Berger 85.5gn) are again allowed .... but 308 Win shooters can also go heavier too in their loads. So, it really comes down to recoil tolerance and management. The beauty of the 223 is its light kick and torque, in 18lb F/TR rifles barely noticeable, so if you can shoot a Palma weight sling rifle significantly better than with the 308 version (or as in many cases become able to sling shoot at all because of age/health/injury issues) then the 223 might be very competitive.

Laurie, I shot in the 2017 Fullbore Nationals, NRA Whittington, Raton, and there the 308 cal palma rifles were limited to 156g projectiles but the 223 could shoot any weight. I brought both my 223 and 308 guns and shot them both several days, but at times, with the 6600 FT elevation, I could swear the 223 with 90 VLD's had a bit of an advantage. BTW I live and shoot at 0 sea level.

 

[Laurie]

and there the 308 cal palma rifles were limited to 156g projectiles but the 223 could shoot any weight. I brought both my 223 and 308 guns and shot them both several days, but at times, with the 6600 FT elevation, I could swear the 223 with 90 VLD's had a bit of an advantage.

It makes sense to waive the 'less than 81gn' ceiling in this discipline as the 223 struggles against 308/155 at longer distances, and my feeling back in 2011/12 when I shot 223 in l-r F/TR was that the there was a pretty level playing field between the pair at that time. Whilst the 223 was much nicer to shoot, it was more likely to see an occasional 'elevation funny' on the small F-Class ring targets. There was talk of lobbying ICFRA back then to allow 90s with the 223 to achieve this level playing field in the sling disciplines, and a quick check shows it apparently succeeded as a perusal of the rules now shows in the TR section:

T2.19.2.2. The bullet diameter for .223 Remington will be between .2235” and .2245”. No single bullet may exceed 91 grains in weight (or the factory tolerance for 90 grain ammunition where factory ammunition is used).

Since that time 308 development has progressed quite a bit further especially in F/TR even without the general adoption of heavier bullets such as the 185 Juggernaut and 200.20X Bergers. 155s are being ramped up to scarily impressive speeds thanks to small primer brass and new powders. The downside is barrel life which runs at a fraction of 'traditional' expectations (and which still apply to most UK 'TR' with the use of the 155 SMK in the low 2,900s). I don't know much about the US Fullbore scene, but in the past I've gained the impression that your 308 handloads generally produce around 3,000 fps with 155/155.5s, so the field remains fairly level. I'm pleased to hear that 223 is seeing use in Fullbore on your side of the Atlantic - always had a soft spot for the little cartridge.

 

[Laurie]

I'm the lucky one that has never had a problem with bullet blowups. 7 twist Bartlien 5R rifling 30". Personally, I think the 5R is much easier on the jackets than a 4 grove. I use RL-15 powder.

I've been surprised by the many mentions of heavy 0.224" bullet blow-ups on the forum. I never suffered this myself with the 90gn BT and VLD Bergers despite running the VLD at ~2,900 fps with Re15. This was in a 7-twist Trueflite 6-groove barrel from New Zealand. I'm about to have another play with the cartridge in a Benchmark barrel, also 7-twist, but I believe four groove so I'll just have to see whether it now arises.

I do wonder though if different experiences on this issue mainly arise out of the difference between US and UK conditions and shooting practices. Breaking 80F is a very hot summer's day here even in southern England and 90 is exceptional (although some Bisley matches saw this temperature earlier this year in what has been our hottest ever summer). Where I shoot in the frozen northern wastes at 980 ft ASL anything over 70 is regarded as a hot day and we often shoot in the 50s/low 60s even in so-called 'high summer'. Also, and perhaps more crucial, we don't string shoot in TR or F-Class, pairs (or even threesomes in club matches) being the norm so there is 90 seconds minimum between shots and barrels won't reach temperatures seen in US conditions and practices.

The only 224 bullet blow-ups I ever had was many years ago shooting the rather fragile 52gn Hornady AMax in a well-worn Lilja 8-twist barrel. The load had been worked up over the preceding winter and had been entirely satisfactory in cool conditions. Shooting it on a hot day in a very protected lowland range, a real heat-trap in warm weather, the following summer saw the first few shots giving excellent results starting with a cold, clean barrel, then very bad elevation stringing appearing as the barrel heated and fouled followed by nearly every bullet blowing up at around 100 yards from the muzzle.

 

[stuann]

I've been surprised by the many mentions of heavy 0.224" bullet blow-ups on the forum. I never suffered this myself with the 90gn BT and VLD Bergers despite running the VLD at ~2,900 fps with Re15. This was in a 7-twist Trueflite 6-groove barrel from New Zealand. I'm about to have another play with the cartridge in a Benchmark barrel, also 7-twist, but I believe four groove so I'll just have to see whether it now arises.

I do wonder though if different experiences on this issue mainly arise out of the difference between US and UK conditions and shooting practices. Breaking 80F is a very hot summer's day here even in southern England and 90 is exceptional (although some Bisley matches saw this temperature earlier this year in what has been our hottest ever summer). Where I shoot in the frozen northern wastes at 980 ft ASL anything over 70 is regarded as a hot day and we often shoot in the 50s/low 60s even in so-called 'high summer'. Also, and perhaps more crucial, we don't string shoot in TR or F-Class, pairs (or even threesomes in club matches) being the norm so there is 90 seconds minimum between shots and barrels won't reach temperatures seen in US conditions and practices.

The only 224 bullet blow-ups I ever had was many years ago shooting the rather fragile 52gn Hornady AMax in a well-worn Lilja 8-twist barrel. The load had been worked up over the preceding winter and had been entirely satisfactory in cool conditions. Shooting it on a hot day in a very protected lowland range, a real heat-trap in warm weather, the following summer saw the first few shots giving excellent results starting with a cold, clean barrel, then very bad elevation stringing appearing as the barrel heated and fouled followed by nearly every bullet blowing up at around 100 yards from the muzzle.

Heat build up during string firing in the summer seems to have been a factor in the bullet blow-ups I have experienced.
For us non-engineers - would the bore stay (meaningfully) cooler with a light, versus standard, versus heavy Palma contour barrel?

 

[USMCDOC]

Heat build up during string firing in the summer seems to have been a factor in the bullet blow-ups I have experienced.
For us non-engineers - would the bore stay (meaningfully) cooler with a light, versus standard, versus heavy Palma contour barrel?

You really want that heavy palma.. when i was shooting palma with a .223, all my barrels were 7.2 twist Rock Creek barrels

 

[skiutah02]

My writeup on 90s blowing up. Still my working theory.

An oldie but a goodie.

Been awhile since I posted this, perhaps it's timely again. I wrote this about my 90 blowing up experience to Greg (Nedd Ludd here). Back in the day (ca. 2015)

http://faculty.cord.edu/rutherf/12/90vldblowingup.pdf

Drew