They loaded at the range, tuning to the conditions. Much of which is and always has been based on group shapes. Ask them about that.
New Barrel Break-in (with Tuner) -- 6mm Dasher
- Thread starter Mikemontminy
- Start date
Where the gun shoots small at top or bottom of harmonic bbl swing. This shows in a sine test. POI is just as important to me determining a reliable sweet spot as group size. It has to do with the natural and predominant frequency of the bbl, while there are many smaller frequencies happening simultaneously. On an o scope, the wave form is ugly with spikes virtually everywhere, but with a repeated freq or distance between anti-nodes, which is why a reliable tune is at top or bottom of those and not the many smaller anti nodes being induced along the way. Will that work? Those smaller nodes show in group size but may happen anywhere along the natural freq curve. They are the places NOT at top or bottom that might produce a tiny group but any tiny change, be it condition or tuner movement will take that small group to crap, almost instantly. Top or bottom is where ya want to be. Preferably top but both will shoot small and consistently. That would bring us to positive compensation...later.
Well your’e warming up, but sine wave only appear on a horizontal format.
Quite honestly the op’s set up would likely shoot groups similar to setting number 20 without a tuner.
Well, ya lost me there. Not hard to do. Lol! This target shows the sine wave and the group shapes I look for but is also an example of one that doesn't "talk to me" as much as I'd like for it to...my preference. But the sine is very clear and where the smallest groups are, as well as the spacing between anti-nodes being remarkable predictable...but I'm listening. What do you mean by, the sine only showing in the horizontal? That just doesn't compute with me for various reasons, but I may well be misunderstanding what you're trying to say too.
As for it shooting the same size and even shape of group when in tune, gets to the point I've been making. It's not exclusive to tuners and tuners are not about making your best groups smaller, but maintaing those best groups through condition changes without loading at the range. I think some expect them to improve upon a perfect tune but perfect is perfect and it doesn't matter how you get there. The problem is that tune changes with conditions and that gets back to my other previous point about having three options to deal with that.
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Those are all fired at the same POA baby. I really thought you knew that and had experience in this regard. Nothing wrong with not, but trust me on this. I don't pull this stuff outta my back side. I could literally post 1000 targets, fired by different shooters from all over the country, in different disciplines, and it's there. I will say that it's harder to see at 50 yards with a rimfire but even then, it's there too. Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding but your last post seemed pretty clear, just not correct. I promise, I mean that respectfully. Others gave the test the name of a "sine test". I didn't make that up but I went with it because I thought it was pretty common knowledge by now and...it makes sense to call it that, if you will.
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Looks like 14 points of aim to me, circling back to the term ‘sweet spot’ I find it easier to define when testing charge rates as a pause or overlap.
True, but that target and every one of well over 1000 I've had people do as part of what I called my tuner test...uses the same poa. Yes, actually the test is 15 different ones but all on the same horizontal and vertical plane. It's whole purpose is to show the poi displacement along the way but always holding on the individual line intersection points...same poa. You just wouldn't believe how many times I've done this...Literally well over 1000 are not even my own targets. Please, just try to accept this. There is plenty to disagree about but this just isn't one of them.
Sorry, corrected my post twice. 1000, not 100
Oh I believe you Mike, I’ve performed many charge tests and seating tests in the horizontal / sine wave/ ocw format. We were discussing peak tunes back around post 37-38 then went to defining a sweet spot and now were kinda getting off topic.
Nevertheless I believe the ops Dasher would shoot small 100 yard # 20 groups with or without a tuner.
Nevertheless I believe the ops Dasher would shoot small 100 yard # 20 groups with or without a tuner.
I should leave it at that but I gotta ask...Why do you think he can remove the tuner and it still maintain the same peak(or near) tune? It can, but there's a lot of random luck there. About 1 in 4 or 5 at best, with my tuner. Some more some less. But yes, it can and does happen. But why would you predict something with at best, a 20-25% chance of being true? I know these numbers btw, with my tuner and can go into more detail as to why if ya like.
And, I do enjoy discussion and am happy that we can do this without it getting stupid. Thank you for that!
I think I get what your saying if all the groups in the sine wave were shot at 1 poa you'd basically have a group showing the dispersion?
Brett, all groups in the test are fired using the same POA.
I don’t how a guy would evaluate a tuner using a single point of aim, as we do in long range ladder test.
Mike you’ve already agreed your using 14 points of aim along one horizontal line.
Why is this difficult to understand or am I missing it? Every group has the same POA. The target is self explanatory. The group's POI move around with the same poa and it's clear on that target. What am I missing and is it relevant? I'm just really trying to see where you're coming from here. Please say this is more than semantics. I'm not understanding at all. I'm going in for the night but I hope we're on the sam,e page, or close. I just can't get my head wrapped around whatever it is you are saying. My point is this, in simple, going to bed terms.. same POA does does NOT equal same POI while tuning. Nothing more, nothing less, for now. Just want to get that clear with anybody that wonders. It's plain as the nose on your face on the target I posted and I've got many that are even more clear than it. I certainly hope that's clear enough. I just don't know how it can be clearer than the picture I posted is all. Sometimes it takes more to convince us if we have our minds made up in a different direction, is all I can say beyond this.
I mean, I'm saying 1000 plus pics showing what I'm saying. So hopefully, I'm just misuderstanding your position. Otherwise..well, I can't help ya.
Semantics ? No
This is a powder ladder using one point of aim. What’s so hard about understanding that?
Good night.
This is a powder ladder using one point of aim. What’s so hard about understanding that?
I guess I should finish my off the wall thoughts here, when looking at a test target like this the sine wave doesn’t reveal itself the same way , so not being a tuner guy I wouldn’t know how to evaluate a ( sweet spot) where a powder test this way is quite easy to evaluate.
Good night.
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So in this test you held on the center intersection/aiming point and dialed scope rt and left?
Or you shot a group at each individual intersection/aiming point either way nice shooting
A ladder? So different loads gave different poi, with the same poa? Doesn't matter. I love ya but I don't think I can explain it any better than pics with clear explanations. If you have further questions just call me and I'll be happy to explain whatever we're on different pages on, Monday.
Brett, all groups are same poa at each aiming point on the target without any scope adjustments at all. I hope he doesn't mind me posting this but @AlNyhus fired this test, not me. It's so easy, I'm just not sure where people are getting confused. Absolutely, positively, poi changes with same poa. Pretty evident to me. Can't be clearer than that. Help me Al! What are they asking/saying that I'm missing here?
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After some rest, I see what you're saying now about overlaying all groups. It would be just a single large group but what would be the point of doing that? The group will eventually just look like an egg standing on its end but mostly if not entirely, one big hole showing the dispersion induced by moving the tuner. On this target, even the out of tune groups are still pretty small but the shapes I look for are still there, just harder to see than I prefer. Which brings us back to the point I was trying to make earlier, regarding tuning on the fly based on group shapes. I think that's how we got to here, iirc.
To me, each group stands on its own except, there are predictable, repeatable attributes to each group that I look for. Poi is one, which I think was the point we were discussing. Group shapes and spacing between sweet spots are a couple more. My apologies for the confusion. Different perspective and poor communication on my part. Some of my posts were while I was very busy and didn't take the time to read them with any different view at the moment.
To me, each group stands on its own except, there are predictable, repeatable attributes to each group that I look for. Poi is one, which I think was the point we were discussing. Group shapes and spacing between sweet spots are a couple more. My apologies for the confusion. Different perspective and poor communication on my part. Some of my posts were while I was very busy and didn't take the time to read them with any different view at the moment.
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