The shear number of world records and national championships shot with tuners, alone, would infer a bit different story. Some people have a better handle on tuners than others. Tyler has a good handle on his tuner and he's a tough out, anywhere he goes.
New Barrel Break-in (with Tuner) -- 6mm Dasher
- Thread starter Mikemontminy
- Start date
I think rather than the tuner being overrated some shooters are just un-educated with tuners. There is a learning curve with adjusting a tuner for best accuracy.
The vast majority of errant shots are caused by the shooter than for any other reason. No amount of tuner adjustment can/will compensate for shooter error whether it be flag calls or changes in downrange conditions that the shooter missed,,gun handling,etc......it's still shooter error. It may be the tune has gone away....how many errant shots do you shoot to determine it's the tune. Remember,when you say it's the tune,you're also saying that EVERYTHING else was perfect including the shooter.
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for black rifles!
Tuners are used by shooters who actually shoot enough to erode their lands,
swd
Silver $$ Contributor
Tuners are used by competitive shooters who might start a match in the 40’s and finish a match in the 80’s. Or go to multi day tournaments where bringing loading equipment isn’t practical. Expensive? $165 for a tuner that never wears out and can be used over and over..
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
You are 100 percent correct. But I have always felt most rifles at a match are not properly tuned. So.....now the tuner becomes a crutch. Tune the gun properly with the tunedr in a neutral position. When you feel the tune is going away a few shots will get you back in tune. When I started using g a tuner guys shook their heads. For at least 6 or 7 years I only ever saw one other shooter with a tuner. So now I mostly just keep quiet.I wanted to support your correct post.
6BRA
Gold $$ Contributor
90 percent of the fish are in 10 percent of the lake...from.20 years of fishing bass tournys. Finding that 10 percent of the lake takes time on the water. Anyone can catch them once found. Well anyone that knows how to fish. The Bass Pros have pre scouting done for them by local anglers typically. Then they make it look easy. I would think the same applies to reloading. You have to work to find it.
IME, I agree with most of what you say both here and in other threads but again, JME, that there is NO neutral tuner position. Every mark or increment has a value and I don't try to tune for a neutral spot, whatever that is. I change to stay tuned to the hilt and adjust as or if tune goes away. Other than that, we pretty much agree, though. Changes are generally very small and infrequent.
Having a bit of experience with them as well as vibration analysis testing, I've SEEN with my own eyes that you're either in tune or not, with no "neutral position. Yes, there are spots where a tuner changes groups less in size than others. Actually, I stay away from those settings because I tune strictly by group shape and size, now. So, if it creeps out of tune and still shoots good enough to get beat...I still got beat. This is opposed to tune changes clearly showing on the(hopefully the sighter Lol!) target, which tells me I need to make a tuner change. That's where I prefer to be. The whole point of a tuner, to me, is to maintain peak tune...not close and not just close enough it's hard to say either way, but PEAK tune.
Tuners are NOT the same as powder charge tuning because there is no physical explanation that I know of, that allows it to stay at peak over different settings because they change a constant. That constant being phase time of vibration. We can split hairs and debate that until the cows come home but I think we can agree that we are changing a constant whenever we move a tuner.
Powders are different because there are velocity plateaus that occur that give tune width..and neutrality. Just saying, unless you can show me how tuners work in that fashion, I have to go with our vibration analysis and testing results.
I can see value in tuning to a spot where they don't change as drastically where sighters either are non-existent or can't be seen, such as some long range venues, but not in short range or any venue where I can tune to perfection before I go to record. A bit apples to oranges.
As you know, this only takes a few seconds to maybe a couple of minutes, tops...once you know what you're looking for and increment values. If ya don't know your tuner increment values on target, with any tuner or tuning method, you're guessing. That is step one, either way.
But these are your words, with which I agree.. and are to the point I'm trying to make.
"But I have always felt most rifles at a match are not properly tuned"
It's perfectly ok to disagree or to do things differently, for various reasons.. but these are my thoughts and why I feel the way I do. This is much more to promote people to think rather than argue.
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JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Mike, my use of the term neutral is just a term. I could have said the Alpha position. I will define what I mean. I hear questions on where to position the tune initially. Some say start with it adjusted tight to the barrel. I disagree with that from my experience. With the tuner I use I started by developing a load with the tuner 2 revolutions from the end of the barrel. I modified that to 3 revolutions as I found it a bit more responsive. If your load is developed in that position you will usually be able to get back on top of your load with in one or two bumps either left or right. I just chose that starting point to be identified as....neutral.
JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
Your right but....Good shooters know when the rifle went away vs when they are making errors.
But the shooter doesn't know when the load went away until he pulls the trigger and gets the errant shot.
Besides...it's not the load that went away.. ....it's the conditions that changed....the load and the barrel are still the same. The rifle/load are not in tune because of the condition change. The density of the column of air sitting in front of that bullet and downrange is what has changed.....so you make an adjustment to try compensate for the change in the conditions. Also,a change in wind direction and intensity can cause the errant shot even if the density remains the same.
True but tuning by powder charge or with a tuner are both doable and similar. People have been loading to the conditions for decades. There are specific things to look for in group shape that tell an experienced shooter to go up or down as well as in or out on a tuner...and how much. There are also group shapes that we know within reason are not wind related, like groups that go up and to the right or down and left(same thing). That's not typically wind from a rh twist bbl, for example but it's a classic sign of being a fair bit out of tune. Testing is how we know stuff and reading groups comes from experience as well as testing. It's not hard but it does take a bit of time to quantify things and relate them to specific shape and sizes of groups. The way I see it is this..ya got 3 choices. You can load at the range, you can use a tuner or you can run what ya brung and live with the results. The first two take a little more work than the latter but pay the biggest dividends in the end. Wind is just wind, regardless. Kinda similar to my point is if you shoot in a switch but the shot goes where it should for that condition, it's still good data. The key is just knowing where it should go rather than just dismissing it as a "bad shot" and moving on. It told ya something if ya pay attention.
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JEFFPPC
Gold $$ Contributor
I almost never change the tuner during a match. If I am missing wind calls, having bad bench manners, I know it at the shot. If over the course of a match I feel I am on top of taking/ making the shot but it's not happening I am checking my tune next trip to the range and before going to the next match.You want to learn about bench manners, buy a top end Springer airgun, very unforgiving. If you can't trust your gun, you weren't ready for the match.
The problem with peak tunes is that they don’t last’ and probably go away after lunch when the weather changes.
Adjust the tuner or know the load and when to adjust for condition two. Two loads for example or chose a more forgiving tune.
In long range we have to know the latter because of the course of fire and not being able to return to sighters at any time.
Adjust the tuner or know the load and when to adjust for condition two. Two loads for example or chose a more forgiving tune.
In long range we have to know the latter because of the course of fire and not being able to return to sighters at any time.
Yes, like I said, I understand the logic but I also understand that I'm leaving tune on the table unless I'm tuned to the hilt. I don't find that the tune window is wider at some settings but that the groups don't open as much at some sweet spots than others, as it progresses out of tune. With sighters, I use the settings that show lack of tune more clearly to my benefit. Without them is when I can see the logic but I very much relate those settings to a gun/load that shoots just good enough to get me beat. Whatever did we do before we had tuners?
IMHO, tuners are a tool to correct tune on the fly rather than not. There's more than one way, for sure. I do think the key is simply recognizing tune changes and knowing without doubt how to fix it, by whatever means you tune with. That comes with time and the confidence comes with it. But, tuning to places on the tuner that don't show tune clearly, makes it harder to judge tune on the fly, obviously and just makes it more difficult.The main takeaway from this should be that I don't believe some sweet spots are wider than others but that some do show the change more clearly than others...which could easily be confused with being a wider "node", but it's not. It's just not talking to me at those settings. Since I'm pretty slow, I need it to hit me over the head and scream at me...fix me!
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You ask what did we do before we had tuners???.....Ask Tony Boyer what we did or any of the other great shootersYes, like I said, I understand the logic but I also understand that I'm leaving tune on the table unless I'm tuned to the hilt. I don't find that the tune window is wider at some settings but that the groups don't open as much at some sweet spots than others, as it progresses out of tune. With sighters, I use the settings that show lack of tune more clearly to my benefit. Without them is when I can see the logic but I very much relate those settings to a gun/load that shoots just good enough to get me beat. Whatever did we do before we had tuners?
The main takeaway from this should be that I don't believe some sweet spots are wider than others but that some do show the change more clearly than others...which could easily be confused with being a wider "node", but it's not. It's just not talking to me at those settings. Since I'm pretty slow, I need it to hit me over the head and scream at me...fix me!
such Jeff Fowler,Ed Watson,Allan Hall,Speedy Gonzales,Don Geraci...etc,etc.
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