New Barrel Break-in (with Tuner) -- 6mm Dasher

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Well your’e warming up, but sine wave only appear on a horizontal format.
Quite honestly the op’s set up would likely shoot groups similar to setting number 20 without a tuner.

Well, ya lost me there. Not hard to do. Lol! This target shows the sine wave and the group shapes I look for but is also an example of one that doesn't "talk to me" as much as I'd like for it to...my preference. But the sine is very clear and where the smallest groups are, as well as the spacing between anti-nodes being remarkable predictable...but I'm listening. What do you mean by, the sine only showing in the horizontal? That just doesn't compute with me for various reasons, but I may well be misunderstanding what you're trying to say too.
As for it shooting the same size and even shape of group when in tune, gets to the point I've been making. It's not exclusive to tuners and tuners are not about making your best groups smaller, but maintaing those best groups through condition changes without loading at the range. I think some expect them to improve upon a perfect tune but perfect is perfect and it doesn't matter how you get there. The problem is that tune changes with conditions and that gets back to my other previous point about having three options to deal with that.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Your looking at tuner adjustment through a side view now ( a horizontal format) at multiple poa, if you super impose or look at them through an end view ( single point of aim) you won’t see high and lows.

Those are all fired at the same POA baby. I really thought you knew that and had experience in this regard. Nothing wrong with not, but trust me on this. I don't pull this stuff outta my back side. I could literally post 1000 targets, fired by different shooters from all over the country, in different disciplines, and it's there. I will say that it's harder to see at 50 yards with a rimfire but even then, it's there too. Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding but your last post seemed pretty clear, just not correct. I promise, I mean that respectfully. Others gave the test the name of a "sine test". I didn't make that up but I went with it because I thought it was pretty common knowledge by now and...it makes sense to call it that, if you will.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

No need to get upset , we’re just chatting around the campfire.

True, but that target and every one of well over 1000 I've had people do as part of what I called my tuner test...uses the same poa. Yes, actually the test is 15 different ones but all on the same horizontal and vertical plane. It's whole purpose is to show the poi displacement along the way but always holding on the individual line intersection points...same poa. You just wouldn't believe how many times I've done this...Literally well over 1000 are not even my own targets. Please, just try to accept this. There is plenty to disagree about but this just isn't one of them.

Sorry, corrected my post twice. 1000, not 100

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Oh I believe you Mike, I’ve performed many charge tests and seating tests in the horizontal / sine wave/ ocw format. We were discussing peak tunes back around post 37-38 then went to defining a sweet spot and now were kinda getting off topic.
Nevertheless I believe the ops Dasher would shoot small 100 yard # 20 groups with or without a tuner.

I should leave it at that but I gotta ask...Why do you think he can remove the tuner and it still maintain the same peak(or near) tune? It can, but there's a lot of random luck there. About 1 in 4 or 5 at best, with my tuner. Some more some less. But yes, it can and does happen. But why would you predict something with at best, a 20-25% chance of being true? I know these numbers btw, with my tuner and can go into more detail as to why if ya like.
And, I do enjoy discussion and am happy that we can do this without it getting stupid. Thank you for that!

 

[Bc'z]

Oh I believe you Mike, I’ve performed many charge tests and seating tests in the horizontal / sine wave/ ocw format. We were discussing peak tunes back around post 37-38 then went to defining a sweet spot and now were kinda getting off topic.
Nevertheless I believe the ops Dasher would shoot small 100 yard # 20 groups with or without a tuner.

I think I get what your saying if all the groups in the sine wave were shot at 1 poa you'd basically have a group showing the dispersion?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I think I get what your saying if all the groups in the sine wave were shot at 1 poa you'd basically have a group showing the dispersion?

Brett, all groups in the test are fired using the same POA.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I don’t how a guy would evaluate a tuner using a single point of aim, as we do in long range ladder test.
Mike you’ve already agreed your using 14 points of aim along one horizontal line.

Why is this difficult to understand or am I missing it? Every group has the same POA. The target is self explanatory. The group's POI move around with the same poa and it's clear on that target. What am I missing and is it relevant? I'm just really trying to see where you're coming from here. Please say this is more than semantics. I'm not understanding at all. I'm going in for the night but I hope we're on the sam,e page, or close. I just can't get my head wrapped around whatever it is you are saying. My point is this, in simple, going to bed terms.. same POA does does NOT equal same POI while tuning. Nothing more, nothing less, for now. Just want to get that clear with anybody that wonders. It's plain as the nose on your face on the target I posted and I've got many that are even more clear than it. I certainly hope that's clear enough. I just don't know how it can be clearer than the picture I posted is all. Sometimes it takes more to convince us if we have our minds made up in a different direction, is all I can say beyond this.

I mean, I'm saying 1000 plus pics showing what I'm saying. So hopefully, I'm just misuderstanding your position. Otherwise..well, I can't help ya.

 

[Bc'z]

Brett, all groups in the test are fired using the same POA.

So in this test you held on the center intersection/aiming point and dialed scope rt and left?
Or you shot a group at each individual intersection/aiming point either way nice shooting

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Semantics ? No
This is a powder ladder using one point of aim. What’s so hard about understanding that?



Good night.

A ladder? So different loads gave different poi, with the same poa? Doesn't matter. I love ya but I don't think I can explain it any better than pics with clear explanations. If you have further questions just call me and I'll be happy to explain whatever we're on different pages on, Monday.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

So in this test you held on the center intersection/aiming point and dialed scope rt and left?
Or you shot a group at each individual intersection/aiming point either way nice shooting View attachment 1554195

Brett, all groups are same poa at each aiming point on the target without any scope adjustments at all. I hope he doesn't mind me posting this but @AlNyhus fired this test, not me. It's so easy, I'm just not sure where people are getting confused. Absolutely, positively, poi changes with same poa. Pretty evident to me. Can't be clearer than that. Help me Al! What are they asking/saying that I'm missing here?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

After some rest, I see what you're saying now about overlaying all groups. It would be just a single large group but what would be the point of doing that? The group will eventually just look like an egg standing on its end but mostly if not entirely, one big hole showing the dispersion induced by moving the tuner. On this target, even the out of tune groups are still pretty small but the shapes I look for are still there, just harder to see than I prefer. Which brings us back to the point I was trying to make earlier, regarding tuning on the fly based on group shapes. I think that's how we got to here, iirc.

To me, each group stands on its own except, there are predictable, repeatable attributes to each group that I look for. Poi is one, which I think was the point we were discussing. Group shapes and spacing between sweet spots are a couple more. My apologies for the confusion. Different perspective and poor communication on my part. Some of my posts were while I was very busy and didn't take the time to read them with any different view at the moment.

 

[mfendley]

Those are all fired at the same POA baby. I really thought you knew that and had experience in this regard. Nothing wrong with not, but trust me on this. I don't pull this stuff outta my back side. I could literally post 1000 targets, fired by different shooters from all over the country, in different disciplines, and it's there. I will say that it's harder to see at 50 yards with a rimfire but even then, it's there too. Again, maybe I'm misunderstanding but your last post seemed pretty clear, just not correct. I promise, I mean that respectfully. Others gave the test the name of a "sine test". I didn't make that up but I went with it because I thought it was pretty common knowledge by now and...it makes sense to call it that, if you will.

I agree with Mike here. Just label the x axis time and the POA remains constant, Same thing for a sine wave, it only looks like a wave if you make the x axis time - otherwise it is just a vertical line.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I agree with Mike here. Just label the x axis time and the POA remains constant, Same thing for a sine wave, it only looks like a wave if you make the x axis time - otherwise it is just a vertical line.

Yes, and actually, I see it like that... x being time, measured in frequency but in use, measured in the marks on the tuner. IOW, say it's 8 marks from anti-node to anti-node..a full single waveform. It's 8 marks between sweet spots. On the target posted, looks like his is 7 but it's very close and predictable even. The longer bbls common in long range are closer to 10 marks between sweet spots.

Short range bbls are typically about 8 marks between anti-nodes. Again, full wave form.
Half of a waveform would be say 4 marks. So, 4 marks from top of the anti-node to middle...the "scatter node" if you will.

So yes, x is time, broken into 4 or 5 marks between in tune and completely out of tune. My tuner. Other makes do vary with mark values.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

A horizontal target like what Mike posted is exactly the same thing as a ladder target. You just read them different. You see a wave in the horizontal target, you only see vertical poi change in the ladder. You look for the same thing, but read the target different. The only reason to shoot one or the other is distance. Cant shoot a ladder at short range, cant shoot a horizontal sine target at long range. They are in fact the exact same method of tuning.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

A horizontal target like what Mike posted is exactly the same thing as a ladder target. You just read them different. You see a wave in the horizontal target, you only see vertical poi change in the ladder. You look for the same thing, but read the target different. The only reason to shoot one or the other is distance. Cant shoot a ladder at short range, cant shoot a horizontal sine target at long range. They are in fact the exact same method of tuning.

Yes and no. I'm looking for more than a ladder can show me, particularly the sine pattern. No way I could make much sense of 45 holes in a single group. My sine test is 15 three shot groups with a centerfire at 100 yards. There's a reason for every single detail..to me. I get what you're saying though. Very similar in principle.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

For practical reasons you cant shoot that much at long range. Barrel heat and conditions. So you have to isolate the area you want to see and rip that 12-15 shot group ladder. Still 3 shot groups. But only 4-5 of them. Still we are looking for the exact same thing, poi. Since our windows at that range are about .1gn. there is no need to see such a wide range of powder. Luckily.

 

[Mikemontminy]

I know the thread got side tracked a little but appreciate all the information. I was able to get out again today with the dasher after an .22 l.r. match to check tuner settings 17-20 with 5 shot groups at 100 yards. To me tuner setting 19 produced the better 5 shot group today. It printed a bit left compared to the other groups but I’ll blame that on the wind direction. The temperature was up about 12 degrees from last session but average velocity stayed the same at 2920.

 

[Mikemontminy]

My apologies for the detail, wasn’t intentional.
Nice work btw

No need to apologize. Keep the information coming. This is how we all learn.

 

[Mikemontminy]

I now have 183 rounds thru the barrel and did a 500 yard ladder test today with RE16. I finally reached the 2940 FPS velocity that I was looking for. The test was only 10 shots increasing the powder charge .1 grains between shots. The tuner was left on 19. Shots 2-6 formed a 1” group at 500. I was happy with that. I have an 80 round midrange f-class match coming up next weekend. I will probably load up 34.4 grains of RE-16 and see how that goes.

 

[Mikemontminy]

just an update. Settled on 34.6 grains of RE-16. Shot a half dozen different matches so far this year. Took first in all of them. Shot a personal best 500 yard 5 shot group that measured .827 this past weekend at my local club match.