New Area 419 ZERO M-series sizing die

[Area419Craig]

Not trying to be negative - just wanting to clarify.

I'm using Forster sizing dies now with their standard sizing button.
How would the Zero sizing die improve the consistency of shoulder set back? How does it improve the roundness of the inside of the neck

The neck will come specifically from the idea that our pull-through mandrel is ground, and the bearing surface is longer than your neck, which is important for a truly straight, round neck.

Shoulder consistency comes from the ability to contact the bottom of the die with your shellholder.

 

[okie]

mandrel is ground, and the bearing surface is longer than your neck

i like this

 

[Area419Craig]

Love the innovation. But rejecting the decades-long 7/8 press standard seems an iffy proposition.

That issue aside, seems to me the biggest question will be the actual numbers. Using premium brass - say Alpha, Lapua, or Peterson - what will a sized case from an M-Series die give us, both in absolute terms and in repeatability/consistency, compared to, say, a Redding S-Series die? Or a semi-custom die like a Harrell's?

There's an obvious market for high-end, premium shooting products. But those that succeed usually have a demonstrable edge over their less expensive counterparts. A lot of guys have paid a thousand bucks for an FX120i scale and AutoTrickler combination.

Will definitely be watching the M-Series with interest. For me it comes down to how much of the M-Series is essentially cosmetic versus how much is meaningful.

EDIT: @jelenko posted while I was writing, and said it better than I did!

A 7/8 with nearly all features is coming, it's mentioned in all of the videos we have made. The major difference is the die will lose the micrometer-adjustable headspace.

The S-Series will be a reamer cut, on-size (go pin-gauge the mouth of off the shelf dies, then compare them to chamber reamer specs, and you'll realize why sticky-bolt happens without occasional small-base sizing) die, with a ground neck expander and spring-loaded primer eject 7/8" die.

We've never said other dies aren't good and don't do certain things well, or that good ammo can't be made without one, we simply think this die combines more features than any other.

 

[Area419Craig]

So, what is the material used to make the sizing sleeve? Rc to what number?
Any accommodations for thinner, neck turned brass? What about sleeves to work with over/ under size brass? How long do you think the thread for HS adj. will hold up?

The sleeve is 17-4 PH and is nitrided, so a core hardness around 30 and surface around 58. Surface finishes are being held sub-8, but many have come in meaningfully lower.

 

[Area419Craig]

@Area419Craig
I’ve been told by a die maker which reamer they based their resizing die dimensions but wouldn’t share the dimensions so I could decide in advance if that was a suitable match for my chamber, in result I ended up sending the die back for honing. Where do stand on this and would you share reamer specs with a potential customer?
Jim

We are not sharing reamer specs, but the reamers themselves are being designed alongside Alpha Munitions to take brass back to factory or factory-like diameters on the body.

The rifle chambers these are built specifically against are the Alpha Legacy reamer specs, which are not specifically special or different, are very much built around their brass, which is SAAMI (where applicable) in dimension.

 

[avidflyer]

The neck will come specifically from the idea that our pull-through mandrel is ground, and the bearing surface is longer than your neck, which is important for a truly straight, round neck.

Shoulder consistency comes from the ability to contact the bottom of the die with your shellholder.

Isnt this what SAC has been doing the last year or two with there all in one dies that use a mandrel.

 

[Canis_Lupus]

I wonder what the employee discount is ...

should be $419

 

[Jager]

Here's a video by Gavin (and Craig) which goes into a bit more of a deep dive into the new M-Series die.

Impressive bit of engineering, for sure.

My gunsmith has a Zero Press and I was quite impressed with it. I may own one someday. In the meantime, my guess is that current Zero owners will be the primary audience.

If Area419 ever makes the die in .30 BR - my primary competitive caliber - I may explore its benefits.

 

[dcali]

That's a lot of scratch for a factory die. Not for me, but I'm sure they'll sell a ton. Looks really nice. If you're asking how much, you're probably not the target market.

There are two kinds of people. Those who will chuckle and say "good luck with that", and those who will open their wallets before they know what it costs.

 

[rpierce]

Ok if you say so but still if I were going to spend that kind of money I would be using custom dies. Whidden made me one for a 30 Major using my fired cartridges for half the price of your die. Just saying, each to their own

And whidden is junk. You get what you pay for lol. I went the custom route with whidden and was extremely disappointed. Wouldn't size the case at all and terrible runout. I have several items from 419. Are they cheap? No but Im not interested in junk. Area419's products aren't priced for everyone. But if you want extremely high quality products then Area 419 is one of the few companies that offer that. And they cant hardly keep up with demand for their products. Constantly expanding with bigger buildings and more machines.

 

[dcali]

And whidden is junk. You get what you pay for lol. I went the custom route with whidden and was extremely disappointed. Wouldn't size the case at all and terrible runout.

That's surprising. Mine are excellent (and also firmly into "I don't really need this" territory). Sounds like they screwed up your dies specifically.

 

[JimSC]

Area419's products aren't priced for everyone.

everyone has free choice on what they spend the money on

polished aluminum powder cup from 419 - $70
polished aluminum measuring cup from the kitchenware dept - $6 for a set of four, I use the 1/8th cup size the wife uses the others. The scale probably cannot tell the difference between the $70 cup and the $6 cup. I used to use a plastic cup from a empty detergent box, then decided to get fancy on a whim

 

[PatMiles]

And whidden is junk. You get what you pay for lol. I went the custom route with whidden and was extremely disappointed. Wouldn't size the case at all and terrible runout. I have several items from 419. Are they cheap? No but Im not interested in junk. Area419's products aren't priced for everyone. But if you want extremely high quality products then Area 419 is one of the few companies that offer that. And they cant hardly keep up with demand for their products. Constantly expanding with bigger buildings and more machines.

And you did give Whidden a call and ask to get the problem die replaced?

 

[Dave M.]

If you’ve never had a product from Area 419 you should own one before reviewing their stuff.

The stuff they make is machined, finished and functions perfect. Yeah I know lots of companies do that but their stuff is good.

I’d love to own the press and dies but it’s over budget for me.

From what I saw in the video, most of what this setup will do can be achieved with a custom die with more tinkering and tuning to your setup. Ease of use is a big thing these days.

I have their aluminum powder cup for the auto throw & auto trickler setup, and the damn handle is held in place with a single tiny hex head screw that is constantly coming loose. Forgive me for not being the biggest fan.

Dave

 

[Dave M.]

everyone has free choice on what they spend the money on

polished aluminum powder cup from 419 - $70
polished aluminum measuring cup from the kitchenware dept - $6 for a set of four, I use the 1/8th cup size the wife uses the others. The scale probably cannot tell the difference between the $70 cup and the $6 cup. I used to use a plastic cup from a empty detergent box, then decided to get fancy on a whim

This is what I should do. I hate my 419 cup. Freaking handle coming loose all the time drives me nuts.

 

[rijndael]

Did you try a drop of loctite?

 

[TylerFromMS]

I have their aluminum powder cup for the auto throw & auto trickler setup, and the damn handle is held in place with a single tiny hex head screw that is constantly coming loose. Forgive me for not being the biggest fan. View attachment 1392881

Dave

Loctite?

 

[Greenyonline2]

Taking advantage of the fact that with the right marketing you can get whatever price you want from some folks. Pretty common these days as it insinuates exclusivity.

 

[Jager]

Some things make a difference on target. Some don't.

The precision shooting community has shown over and over again its willingness to support big ticket items IF that thing provides a demonstrable edge.

If I'd been having a beer with Craig and his team while they were contemplating the M-Series, I'd have asked "what is the problem you're looking to solve?"

Because it seems to me that all those very real issues that come with FL sizing die setup and use have pretty much been solved by shooters.

But I'm a fan of innovation and I'd honestly like to be proved wrong. It would be cool if ammo shot with the M-Series suddenly starting producing tighter groups than we have today.

 

[drop_point]

I haven't read very in-depth on the new die, but it looks to combine steps to save time.

It sizes, decaps, and expands in one step, but not in the traditional way. Its more akin to using a FL sizer die without an expander ball, then running through a pin gauge die to expand. It also sizes further down the case body possibly eliminating those "clickers" I keep reading about. Plus, it eliminates the need different competition shell-holders or even having to try multiple dies to get a properly set-back shoulder for your brass...it can be dialed-in.

If a guy was starting out, he may buy a $100-200 sizing die (or perhaps more if he wants a custom die), a $150 in a die to expand with gauge pins, and $80 for a set of competition shell holders so $430 and work the handle of the press twice for every piece of brass. I can see the utility in it, and I'm sure it does a fine job. But for me, loading about a dozen different cartridges, I won't be replacing my dies with these at the moment. Plus, I've got my process and system down already.

I have a zero press and it is excellent. I just bought a second turret for it. Overall, I can't imagine spending $700+ to get into using these new dies when the system I have works already but outside some fatal flaw, we can't disparage a company for building a better mouse trap that saves the loader both time and complication.