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Need Schooling on AR15

HTSmith

Silver $$ Contributor
After 30 years of shooting and reloading for bolt guns, I finally bought an AR. It is a match type rifle with a heavy barrel and a really nice two stage trigger. It placed well at a 600 yard match using 77 Gr Sierras, but I don't for sure know the twist or the load that was used. I've read everything I could on this site but still have questions. A few are:
Do I need a small base sizer? (Most of the issues I've seen at the range were with oversized cases)
Do I need to crimp--taper or other wise?
What are the pressure signs to look for in working up a load?
What sort of cleaning and maintenance paraphernalia will I need?

Any help/guidance appreciated.
 
Full length size with small base dies. Bump the shoulder 0.003. No crimp. size the neck for a 0.003 interference fit. Do not turn necks. Do not overload, it is not needed. Start with the accuracy load in the Sierra manual. Normal cleaning, but it shits where it eats, strip the bolt and soak in simple green over night but not 24 hours. Clean the barrel but do not over do it. Use plenty of lub. Buy Glen Zedikers books. You will be amazed at the accuracy of the AR.
 
A/R shooters vary in how they do everything- just like bolt shooters. Here is what works for me. I think it is safe to say your rifle twist is at least 1-9 or it would not stabilize the 75's. It is most likely a 1-8 or 1-7 if made for such medium-long range. I have many A/R's and had many others and only one required a small-based die - and that was for a .20 Practical. An exceptionally tight match chamber may require one, but most do not. I would not want to use one unless needed. Just my perference. I too bump shoulders. I go .002" bump if I am shooting the ammo within several days and .004" if going on the shelf for unknown period such as varmint or plinking ammo. I never crimp my ammo, rather I use full-length neck bushing die to apply extra neck tension. It takes a lot to ensure your bullet does not move while being stripped and loaded, yet crimp is not needed and if done other than perfectly, it will affect your accuracy. The best primers to use in A/R's are Remington 7 1/2's, Federal A/R Match, CCI Military, Tula 5.56 or other primers designed to be used in A/R's or having the thicker cups/less sensitive priming mixture to prevent slam fires. These primers don't always flatten on high pressure the way some softer primers do and the most reliable signs of over pressure are by taking measurements of the base of the brass before your first firing and monitor them after each test load. If they expand .001", you've reached your limit and need to back off. I turn the necks on all my A/R brass when I want absolute accuracy - even on my varmint loads. A/R's respond to it as well as any other rifle. As with bolt guns, the more accurate the rifle is, the more apparent the result. A lot of folks don't do it because of the effort involved and the shorter life-span of A/R brass as compared to a bolt gun. Just depends on whether it is important to you. When neck turning, you are not taking off a lot, only skimming them to an average 80% clean metal or so. Not enough metal removal to have any (adverse) affect on bullet grip or to compromise the integrity of the brass strength for cycling. For cleaning, barrel cleaning is as would be done for a bolt gun. Do buy an A/R chamber brush that will clean your lugs, chamber and recesses. A dozen or more twists when cleaning will help a lot. Disassemble the bolt from the carrier and scrub well, clean, dry, then spray in and out with Remoil, wipe the Remoil off (helps keep carbon from sticking for easy clean the next time). Then apply LIGHT film of Froglube on bolt, cam pin and exterior of the bolt carrier. Don't dismiss cleaning bolt carrier raceway in the upper receiver, charging handle, etc. Always monitor your bolt lugs for amissing lug or cracks, make sure you are not missing pieces of bolt gas rings, etc.. Unlike bolt guns, these are parts that tend to wear out and need to be serviced - sometimes as often as 2,500 rounds or as much as 6,000 rounds, depending on loads used, your cleaning regimen, etc.
 
T-REX said:
Start with the accuracy load in the Sierra manual.

+1 Here's a quick link to that. Good info.... http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Mike
 
Thanks. I have Varget and Reloader 15 on hand. Will they work with the heavier bullets?
 
I gave you an opinion that recommended using small base dies for your application and you received another opinion that recommended not using small base dies so how do you decide? I will give you my reason for recommending small base dies for the AR and then you can make an informed decision. I think for the semi auto military style action with a floating firing pin the case needs to fit the chamber with some clearance. First the action needs to function reliability and second it needs to function safely. I have seen slam fires with the M14 and they are usually associated with more than one issue, soft primer like Federal, high primer not properly seated, firing pin a little too long, firing pin hole a little too large, case not properly sized for the chamber, dirty chamber, loading the round directly in the chamber rather than feeding from the magazine, etc. These slam fires are rare and probably were a result of more than one of the issues that I name but when they happen they are dramatic. I have not seen this happen with the AR but the type of action also has the military style floating firing pin so I assume the potential is there. So I use the small base sizing die just to be on the safe side and have not seen anyone present any data that says there is an advantage for function, safety or accuracy for not using the small base die. The small base die only resizes the case back to original new brass SAMMI specs and does not overly size the brass as some folks think. If someone has information on why it would be better not to use the small base die for the AR that would be helpful for us all to learn.
 
HTSmith said:
Thanks. I have Varget and Reloader 15 on hand. Will they work with the heavier bullets?
Again, I would look at the accuracy loads listed in the Sierra manual. I did a lot of testing with the Sierra 80 and 77grain bullets and the Hornady 75 BTHP and the 75 grain A Max bullets. I got good results with N140, A2520, Reloader 15 and H4895. A lot of folks use Varget but I did not get as much velocity as with the other powders. I was using a 26 inch 1 in 8 barrel and also did some testing with a 20 inch 1 in 8 barrel. If you would like more info send me a PM and I will send you a copy of the full report which is rather long.
 
I'm not trying to infer that anything trex is saying is wrong - as it is not. There are just different ways of doing things. Reloader 15 for the heavy bullets trumps Varget in my rifles. Varget really shines with the 69's though. I appreciate what trex is saying about small-base dies. I'll elaborate just a bit on my reasoning for not using them. First, I don't use brass that was fired out of a machine gun. The guys at the range with all the jambs from improper brass fit can often blame their jambs on machine-gun brass that has expanded bases beyond SAAMI spec, their brass base-to-shoulder measurement is too much or they have an underpowered load which results in a short-stroke. Ninety percent of their problems are right there. Those who use machine gun brass are those most likely to benefit from the use of short base dies for the first reloading. It is well known (to most) that excessive or unwarranted full-length sizing shortens the life span of cases. And that is with brass continuously fired in the SAME chamber. When short-base dies are NEEDED due to having fired brass in the chamber of another gun, it was because the chamber was larger than your chamber. To say you can just squish it back to SAMMI specs makes it "A-O.K." is true in the sense it can probably chamber more reliably. But you are also weakening the base of the brass in the process - as it is the hardest part of the case and which shortens case life dramatically in my experience. There are others who find their brass will no longer fit in their chambers due to excessive loads in their own rifles and will use short base dies to remedy their ill-fitting brass. I don't do that. Once my brass has been over-pressured - I destroy it and move on with new. Bottom line, in probably 9 of 10 cases, short-base dies are used to get crap brass that has been overpressured to fit a chamber again. Because I don't try to recycle much crap brass, I choose not to need a die that requires it. This is not to say I am right or wrong - just a difference in opinion.
 
searcher said:
I'm not trying to infer that anything trex is saying is wrong - as it is not. There are just different ways of doing things. Reloader 15 for the heavy bullets trumps Varget in my rifles. Varget really shines with the 69's though. I appreciate what trex is saying about small-base dies. I'll elaborate just a bit on my reasoning for not using them. First, I don't use brass that was fired out of a machine gun. The guys at the range with all the jambs from improper brass fit can often blame their jambs on machine-gun brass that has expanded bases beyond SAAMI spec, their brass base-to-shoulder measurement is too much or they have an underpowered load which results in a short-stroke. Ninety percent of their problems are right there. Those who use machine gun brass are those most likely to benefit from the use of short base dies for the first reloading. It is well known (to most) that excessive or unwarranted full-length sizing shortens the life span of cases. And that is with brass continuously fired in the SAME chamber. When short-base dies are NEEDED due to having fired brass in the chamber of another gun, it was because the chamber was larger than your chamber. To say you can just squish it back to SAMMI specs makes it "A-O.K." is true in the sense it can probably chamber more reliably. But you are also weakening the base of the brass in the process - as it is the hardest part of the case and which shortens case life dramatically in my experience. There are others who find their brass will no longer fit in their chambers due to excessive loads in their own rifles and will use short base dies to remedy their ill-fitting brass. I don't do that. Once my brass has been over-pressured - I destroy it and move on with new. Bottom line, in probably 9 of 10 cases, short-base dies are used to get crap brass that has been overpressured to fit a chamber again. Because I don't try to recycle much crap brass, I choose not to need a die that requires it. This is not to say I am right or wrong - just a difference in opinion.
Good explanation and good info for those learning which includes me. Even though I always start with new brass in the AR I still use the small base die and this may be overly cautious and I am probably reacting to seeing what happens first hand with a slam fire. If you are starting with new brass and you have a "normal" chamber then it probably is not necessary to use the small base die. I say "normal" because I have heard of some folks that seem to think a "tight" chamber will improve accuracy in an AR and that could be a problem. I am stating the obvious but a semi auto military style action should not be treated like a bolt gun for reloading practices.
 
I too do not need a small base die. But get a tool similar to rcbs precision mic. To set up the FL die and bump shoulders 0.003 shorter than as measured post firing . (.002-.005 is recommended).

I'd recommend an adjustable gas block to reduce case head swipe.

I'd also recommend an AR bore guide to assist in cleaning.
 
There is a 30 minute video on the site. It shows cleaning and bolt take down. Pay special attention where to lube and not. I think a bore guide for cleaning is a must.
 
I have not needed small base dies but do have one (not sure how that happened). The Hornady 75g HPBT has shot very well for me across the course with RL15 - its a lower cost bullet that has at least been the equal of Sierra 69g or the 75g Amax for accuracy for me. As stated above you need a primer with a thicker cup due to the pressure of the round and floating firing in the AR15. I ended up adding a carrier wait to my BCG to slow down unlocking with the heavy bullet loads (seems easier on the brass).

One point you might already know but Federal brass is thicker than most 223 brass. I ran into pressure issues with a load developed in LC brass/75g Hornady HPBT/RL15/mild temps when it got warmer and I mixed in come FC brass. I now keep the FC brass for my blaster AR and 55g bullets.
 
Use the S/B dies. Most folks miss the point that they really aren't needed so much for chambering issues, but for extraction. S/B dies make for less extraction force on the part of the rifles, and will save you some wear and tear down the road. They don't hurt a thing, and are just a little added insurance to keep Murphy away from your firing point. Aside from that, follow T-Rex's advice, he's been spot on from start to finish.

OleFreak's recommendation of the Zediker book is also really great advice, but I'd also recommend his "Handloading for Competition." It's right on point, since the vast majority of the book deals with loading for ARs or other Service Rifles. Glen will take you through all the minutae from start to finish, and will leave you with a much greater understanding of what's going on here.
 
HTSmith

Kevin Thomas just gave you some very good advice, now go up and read his signature block. The problem in forums is faceless strangers giving advice that you do not know. If advice from Lapua USA isn't good enough I do not know what is. Meaning when Kevin speaks I listen to what has says. ;)

Below are a few of my dies for loading two AR15s and a bolt action Savage.

dies003_zpsf9af9a52.jpg


The black RCBS box is what I use for my AR15 16 inch carbine and my A2 HBAR AR15. This is a small base die and only reduces the base diameter .0005 smaller than the standard green box below it. "BUT" this small base die also sizes further down the case and returns the case to minimum case dimensions. If you use Lake City brass you will get longer case life because this brass in harder in the base than any other case made and will better withstand the sizing operations and chamber pressures with a chamber .002 larger in diameter than SAAMI standards.

556hard-a_zps7570e6b0.jpg


hardness-a_zps8d54ad66.jpg


Bottom line, Lake City brass has higher quality standards than any American made commercial cartridge case.

Below my AR15 A2 HBAR with national match sights, now all I need are laser guided bullets, much younger eyes and braile targets. ;)

AR15_zps72eb36c3.jpg
 
kevinThomas: I'm open to learning from others. Perhaps I have missed something with the short-base dies. If one has brass bases that have not been expanded beyond SAAMI spec, are you saying it is better to use short-base dies to aid extraction (keeping in mind that most short-based dies will reduce the base even smaller than outside-sammi-spec? If so, for what reason does the military and ammunition makers (including Lapua) not use this sizing? I shoot a number of A/R's and run around 20,000 rounds per year through them. The life of my wear parts are in line/exceeding what Zediker's book says is to be expected - and that of what I was taught in the military - but I am not running full-power 5.56 loads - mostly varmints. What type of wear reduction would one expect on brass that never "needed" short-base dies, either for loading or extraction?
 
Multi part question here, so let me try and take these one by one. In re the S/B dies, amny shooters assume that the standard F/L dies resize a fired case back to its original, unfired dimensions; this isn't the case. Most makes leave them a bit larger than new, unfired brass, though it's pretty close. Different die makers also vary a bit in where they choose to run their tolerances. Redding only began offering S/B dies a few years back, as they were already cutting their F/L dies down to very tight specs. On the flip side, many years back when I was still on the Sierra tech line, when a caller called in and reported problems that dealt with failure to chamber issues, we'd walk them back step by step in trying to eliminate the problems one by one. In those cases where it came down to a bad die that was simply failing to resize the cases enough, the dies were almost invariably Lee dies. Without fail. Obviously, Lee was willing to run their production on the upper size limits, and it occasionally caused problems with some chambers on the market. The S/B dies just manage to sidestep a lot of this nonsense, and get straight to the heart of the matter. Some of the others were probably in between these extremes, but since the S/B dies are more commonly available now from everyone, I just think it's good practice to avoid the problems in the first place.

As far as the brass itself, while many will claim that the S/B dies are "harder" on brass than standard F/L dies, they do work it a bit more, but we're talking about a very minor degree here. Besides, the issues that usually cost shooters their brass is case head separation, which is in turn caused by bumping the shoulders back to far. Many shooters seem to assume that the S/B dies also bump the shoulders back further, but this is the responsibility of the shooter. Use a gage to set the dies up, and for the ARs you'll want to bump the shoulders back by .003" or so, a thou or two more than you would for a bolt gun. If the S/B dies were truly causeing shorter brass life, we'd see lengthwise cracks running up and down the body of the case, as opposed to the circumferntial cracking we see being caused by headspace issues. Two different things entirely.

In terms of parts wear, I have yet to see any studies done to failure to demonstrate this one way or the other. Such a study would be well beyond the time and expense of the average handloader, and the military certainly has no concern whatsoever about reloadability issues of brass, nor lifespan of parts with various types of reloaded ammo. Basically we're on our own here. But the advice concerning parts wear and easier extraction came directly from William C. Davis Jr., who I'll admit to shamelessly parroting here. If you're going to pass on such commentary, he's the guy to get it from, and I'm comfortable in doing so. He describes this is some writing he had done for the old NRA book simply titled, "Handloading." Long since out of print, but worth its weight in gold. A real treasure trove of some obscure knowledge in there.

If I missed anything, just let me know and I'll try to refine it a bit.

P.S. the S/B die refers to a "Small Base" die, not a "Short Base" die. As I mentioned, headspace is an indepenant variable, which should be the same between S/B and F/L dies.
 
Thanks Kevin, great info there. Like you mention, I'd expect acase head separation or split necks well before a base issue from too much sizing. Sounds like it all comes down to good reloading practices and good dies/tools.

-Mac
 
I appreciate your thorough replies. I would guess my never having needed (except once) short-base dies would probably lie in that I have used the Redding dies - which you explained were always "tight". Ironically, the first dies that did not work in that one firearm were also Redding full-length dies. Their short-base did the trick on that .20 Practical. Incidentally, my short-base dies form a case smaller than factory, unfired brass. I have assumed most do, though it sounds that from your higher level of experience with working with others -that is probably not the case. I guess if I had been buying Lee dies, I might have thought differently about short-base dies long ago. If I run into a large chamber, I will keep Lee in mind. Thanks for the run-down!
 

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