Need help reloading with more precision

[newbieshooter]

I wasn't going to say anything , but I just can't help myself . The OP stated in Post #4 that his interest was towards shooting F-class , and I have to ask .... How can a knowledgeable Benchrest shooter improve the gentleman's loading skills ? Beyond basic brass prep , which generally speaking , is also somewhat different . I've never seen a F shooter load rounds at the range . We load all our rounds at home , and shoot what we bring . I'm bringing this up because I really would like to know , since I've only been shooting F-class for five years .

There seems to be a difference between SR BR and LR BR ?
When I go to watch SR BR matches - I see shooters loading between relays...
In LR BR - I don't see shooters reloading at the range like they do in SR BR. They are shooting what they have loaded 'at home' (or where ever they are staying)....
just my observation

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I wasn't going to say anything , but I just can't help myself . The OP stated in Post #4 that his interest was towards shooting F-class , and I have to ask .... How can a knowledgeable Benchrest shooter improve the gentleman's loading skills ? Beyond basic brass prep , which generally speaking , is also somewhat different . I've never seen a F shooter load rounds at the range . We load all our rounds at home , and shoot what we bring . I'm bringing this up because I really would like to know , since I've only been shooting F-class for five years .

You dont think a guy that has honed his skills enough to put bullet after bullet in the same hole can teach an f class guy thats only loaded for f class a thing or 2? Like being able to show you on paper what different neck tension and primer seating depth does? Like what happens when you pull a bullet with a collet puller, drop it on the floor, or even touch it with case lube on your hands? Benchrest isnt the simple game folks make it out to be or anybody should be able to go out and win id think.

 

[D-4297]

Wondered how long it would take to get the torches lit .
My Bad . Didn't know that everything on this entire board was based on , and Benchrest related . I'll know better in the future .

 

[Dusty Stevens]

There seems to be a difference between SR BR and LR BR ?
When I go to watch SR BR matches - I see shooters loading between relays...
In LR BR - I don't see shooters reloading at the range like they do in SR BR. They are shooting what they have loaded 'at home' (or where ever they are staying)....
just my observation

Its because at 100-200 when the temp changes your load changes and you have to keep up. We use a few very much hand selected pieces of brass also, not just digging in a box and shooting whats there. Its kinda like wind flags- at 100/200 a simple switch will wreck a group. Longer distances its overwhelming to keep up with so that masks the load change that you needed a few groups back. How do you think bart shot that record group and group sizes have shrunk drastically at longer ranges? Guns get cleaned, cases get loaded between matches accounting for tuning and flags get put out. Makes a huge difference.

 

[JFrank]

We don't have time to load between LR relays , one reason is pit duty.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

We don't have time to load between LR relays , one reason is pit duty.

Hire a target crew from the local teenager population. Ive never pulled pit duty or changed a lr br target except in f class. They love the tip money

 

[JFrank]

That would solve one hurdle, next we would need a USB port for their phone chargers.
Seriously, you've never pulled a target?

 

[KY_Windage]

3 results below,, all great, but significantly different.
The first demonstrates accuracy.
The second demonstrates better precision, but worse accuracy.
The third demonstrates a combination accuracy AND precision.

A REAL difference in my eyes is that I'd miss 5 groundhogs in a row with that middle shooting.
View attachment 1250454
View attachment 1250455
View attachment 1250456
That's basic accuracy -vs- precision 101, but there is another aspect of accuracy that many competitors either haven't learned or forgotten: ACCURACY is defined with every single shot.
For a hunter, who's focus should be on accuracy, there is no bench or pre-foulers/pre-warmups, or fixed distances, or grouping/averaging of results. Every single shot establishes the capability.

This happens to mean that a developed cold bore accuracy load can be significantly different from a hot bore precision load. In fact, the entire PLAN can be different.
For example; You wouldn't plan a 600yd GH gun with the highly precise 6PPC setup. That wouldn't be accurate enough at distance.
Your planning would take you to a completely different system, with little shared, including many aspects of reloading.

Sorry, Mike, I'm not buying it. You have just picked up some silly semantics from people trying to impress others with their deep knowledge and superior understanding. The guy who can shoot 1/4" groups at 100 but can't hit at 1,000 does not lack "accuracy," he lacks precision in his training mode.

The guy trying to shoot LR with too small a bullet does not have an "accuracy" problem -- he lacks precision in his choice of bullets.

The middle target did not lack "accuracy," the shooter most likely simply did not care that he was not hitting the bullseye, because he knew he could easily employ the precise scope-dialing necessary to move the POI over to the bullseye.

The guy that shows up at the F-Class match with a perfectly clean barrel employed precision in the wrong way -- now he has to waste a big chunk of his time getting his barrel settled down, and the results he gets in the process will mislead him as to where his scope needs to be dialed.

Accuracy is the goal, precision is how we get there. But it is precision in dozens of things, and not everyone cares enough about their accuracy to put in the time all that comprehensive precision requires to achieve great accuracy.

 

[CA_Shooter]

You know i tried this exact approach . unfortunately i found them to be of zero interest in having or helping begining members get into competition

To get into FClass you don't need much more than a desire to get out there, like any sport.

I'd say sign up and then shoot some matches. Listen a lot. Then if you happen to have a few questions down the road then ask them.

 

[Ccrider]

I am still learning and read this post hoping to pick up a jewel. You can load perfect loads without annealing or neck turning, so don’t stress on that. Just keep your brass in the same lots and number of firings.

Neck tension is crucial. Both in the amount and consistency. This is mandatory. It can be accomplished cheaply by using pin gauges (about 2 bucks each) and a rcbs collet style bullet puller (35$?) If you don’t turn necks, oversized just a little with a bushing and then use theto open/set each neck the same.

Use custom bullets. That way you don’t have to worry about learning how to measure them or what part of them you should be measuring.

The one thing I would tell you to buy before an annealer or neck turner is a chronograph. Use it. It will tell you quick if your loading technique is consistent and also help you to weed out bad cases.

Some will tell you that they don’t worry about es/sd and they let the target tell them. Don’t buy it. What they are not telling you is that they know that their loading technique is consistent and sound.

By a parachute. It will slow your descent down the rabbit hole and allow you time to enjoy and take in every second of it. And, if you can’t find a rich wife to marry, make sure you find one that is understanding, blind or that lines to shop more than you like shooting.

 

[Webster]

Ive been reloading for about 5 years now . all my shooting has been recreational but with an emphasis on accuracy.
I only reload using quality components and im quite diligent with my working up loads and weighing charges but that is basically the end of my precision ...
I know i need and want to add these processes to my reloading.
Annealing , neck turning , and mandrel expanding dies and a concentrity guage .. But cant buy it all at once.
.. What order would you guys recomend i buy these things in and are there any products i should avoid ..if it matters most of my brass is lapua and dies are rcbs

From my experience the best things to improve accuracy is to buy a high quality barrel (Kreiger or Bartlein) and work on bench skills. I have 2 Rem 700, a 6BR and a 6BRX with Kreiger barrels. They are used for varmint hunting but 95% of the shots are at the range. They both shoot under 0.400" with just about any load. I paid about $725 to have a Kreiger barrel installed by a top gunsmith. Both rifles have Jewell triggers $250. Low budjet on everything else. I have shot a group in the 1s and several under 0.250" every year with the 6BR. A crappy barrel will never shoot well with any load.

 

[Ccrider]

crappy barrel will never shoot well with any load.

This is true. However, he has a quality barrel, a Brux. I am assuming it is properly chambered and that he has a decent trigger.

 

[Mojomfg]

Well guys , i got to spend yesterday at the range .
I only fired 4. 5 shot groups through this rifle. We have been discussing .. After reflecting i think i need to learn some new techniques . all 4 groups were shot at 300 yards in 12 mph winds left to right .. All 4 groups were about an inch in vertical and 2 inches in horizontal size .. Things i came to notice .. I bought my trigger from the classifieds and take it at face value it is 1 pound pull .. I think its quite a bit heavier .. Going to try and adjust it down
My front rest is a bald eagle .. Im new to using a rest of this type ..
My rear bag is a cauldwell .. I dont think its near as stable as needed .. Im ordering a protector bag asap

 

[RegionRat]

A 1" tall by 2" wide group at 300y in 12 MPH full value winds is a great start.

Here is a question (well one or two anyway)...

Are you shooting prone or at a bench? If prone, is your body mainly line up with the gun or off at an angle?

If you were being honest about the value of your rested "hold" on the target with the bags you have now, before you break the trigger, how big is your hold? See any motion at all?

Do you see the trigger pull causing the crosshairs to move before the break?

Would you describe your hold on the stock as full cheek weld, full shoulder, and full grip, or are you trying to allow the gun to "float" with minimal hold influence and a very light touch to the trigger?

Do you have a view of the target during the shot, or a face full of gun?

 

[Richard Coody]

Well guys , i got to spend yesterday at the range .
I only fired 4. 5 shot groups through this rifle. We have been discussing .. After reflecting i think i need to learn some new techniques . all 4 groups were shot at 300 yards in 12 mph winds left to right .. All 4 groups were about an inch in vertical and 2 inches in horizontal size .. Things i came to notice .. I bought my trigger from the classifieds and take it at face value it is 1 pound pull .. I think its quite a bit heavier .. Going to try and adjust it down
My front rest is a bald eagle .. Im new to using a rest of this type ..
My rear bag is a cauldwell .. I dont think its near as stable as needed .. Im ordering a protector bag asap

I use the bald eagle base with a shade tree top.

A heavy rear bag will help the rifle track. You want a bag that matches your stock. You don't want the stock riding on the ears. You want the gap between the ears to match the width of your stock. Is the stock a flat bench style or a sporter style. They make bags for both. When you have your rest and bags set up correctly after the gun recoils you should be able to just push it forward and be lined up for the next shot. A Forearm stop really helps with that. Consistent positioning on the bags and Consistent hold makes a huge difference. With that heavier trigger you might try positioning your thumb behind the trigger guard a squeezing the trigger between your thumb and trigger finger.

 

[jelenko]

Well guys , i got to spend yesterday at the range .
I only fired 4. 5 shot groups through this rifle. We have been discussing .. After reflecting i think i need to learn some new techniques . all 4 groups were shot at 300 yards in 12 mph winds left to right .. All 4 groups were about an inch in vertical and 2 inches in horizontal size .. Things i came to notice .. I bought my trigger from the classifieds and take it at face value it is 1 pound pull .. I think its quite a bit heavier .. Going to try and adjust it down
My front rest is a bald eagle .. Im new to using a rest of this type ..
My rear bag is a cauldwell .. I dont think its near as stable as needed .. Im ordering a protector bag asap

1/3 MOA vertical is NOT BAD.
How about starting at 100 yards [or, even 50] to reduce the effect of the wind? No amount of reloading technique/set up is going to reduce the effect of wind.

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I'm glad I only hunt, at least no competitive shooting. Myself and my rifles only need to be able to cold bore head shoot sleeping coyote and red fox 300 yards and closer. Biggest worries bipod position, wind, temp, and elevation angle and my vision. As I get older I may have to shorten the shots or take more body shots. Or get better barrels. Oh I forgot, I have to use bullets that will not destroy the fur value.

 

[Mojomfg]

If you were being honest about the value of your rested "hold" on the target with the bags you have now, before you break the trigger, how big is your hold? See any motion at all?

Do you see the trigger pull causing the crosshairs to move before the break?

Would you describe your hold on the stock as full cheek weld, full shoulder, and full grip, or are you trying to allow the gun to "float" with minimal hold influence and a very light touch to the trigger?

Do you have a view of the target during the shot, or a face full of gun?

I was shooting from a bench

Yes, i saw constant movement, target was a 1" dot. .. Crosshairs were moving but inside the dot
Trigger pull was adding to the movement

I tried shooting with minimal influence on the gun..except for squeezing the rear bag to stay on target .. And using enough shoulder to compensate for how heavy the trigger was "feeling"

I honestly feel if i was shooting a laserbeam of a rifle that shoots .1s and in no wind my groups would have only been a little tighter

 

[Webster]

This is true. However, he has a quality barrel, a Brux. I am assuming it is properly chambered and that he has a decent trigger.

Thanx for the correction. I usually don't read all the replies before commenting. There was 41 replies. Some post have over 100 replies. One person on this website replies 3-5 times for the original post. He replies to the replies.

 

[Jager]

I was shooting from a bench

Yes, i saw constant movement, target was a 1" dot. .. Crosshairs were moving but inside the dot
Trigger pull was adding to the movement

I tried shooting with minimal influence on the gun..except for squeezing the rear bag to stay on target .. And using enough shoulder to compensate for how heavy the trigger was "feeling"

I honestly feel if i was shooting a laserbeam of a rifle that shoots .1s and in no wind my groups would have only been a little tighter

Your instinct about your laser beam rifle is probably on point.

Until you can fundamentally remove discernible movement at the bench, trying to craft more accurate ammo is likely to prove a fruitless exercise.

Everyone starts out thinking shooting from a bench is dead easy. It's not. There's a reason a whole corner of the sport has built up around it.

The good news is that you can work on bench technique very cheaply... dry firing to start. Tear down and rebuild your position between each trigger break. When you've gotten to the point where you first can call every single trigger break... and then, second, you're routinely dialed-in to your target center... then bring live ammo back into the picture.

Then come back to your load as something you might improve.