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Need help reloading with more precision

Ive been reloading for about 5 years now . all my shooting has been recreational but with an emphasis on accuracy.
I only reload using quality components and im quite diligent with my working up loads and weighing charges but that is basically the end of my precision ...
I know i need and want to add these processes to my reloading.
Annealing , neck turning , and mandrel expanding dies and a concentrity guage .. But cant buy it all at once.
.. What order would you guys recomend i buy these things in and are there any products i should avoid ..if it matters most of my brass is lapua and dies are rcbs
 
Of the items you listed (annealing, neck turning, mandrel/expander die, concentricity gauge), I would list only two of those as being "essential"; i.e. annealing and the use of expander mandrels. Some would probably even list the expander mandrels as "optional". If you can let us know the caliber(s) you're shooting, what type of bullets you're using, the rifle setup(s), the powder(s) you use, and a little bit about your reloading/load development procedures and the type of shooting you intend, it might allow for better feedback.

As an example, you can certainly turn necks for a .308 Win or .223 Rem. There are plenty of shooters that do so with good results. However, doing so may not be essential for good precision. Largely, how the rifle is chambered (i.e. tight neck or no-turn neck), the velocity stats you are getting (ES/SD), and the relative precision with which your current loads shoot would be the guiding factors as to whether turning necks would be of significant benefit. There are obviously many different paths to better precision, and knowing more about how you currently are set up and the kind of results you're getting might make it easier to suggest some improvements that can be incorporated into your current reloading regimen.
 
Of the items you listed (annealing, neck turning, mandrel/expander die, concentricity gauge), I would list only two of those as being "essential"; i.e. annealing and the use of expander mandrels. Some would probably even list the expander mandrels as "optional". If you can let us know the caliber(s) you're shooting, what type of bullets you're using, the rifle setup(s), the powder(s) you use, and a little bit about your reloading/load development procedures and the type of shooting you intend, it might allow for better feedback.

As an example, you can certainly turn necks for a .308 Win or .223 Rem. There are plenty of shooters that do so with good results. However, doing so may not be essential for good precision. Largely, how the rifle is chambered (i.e. tight neck or no-turn neck), the velocity stats you are getting (ES/SD), and the relative precision with which your current loads shoot would be the guiding factors as to whether turning necks would be of significant benefit. There are obviously many different paths to better precision, and knowing more about how you currently are set up and the kind of results you're getting might make it easier to suggest some improvements that can be incorporated into your current reloading regimen.
Ned that says it all Tommy Mc
 
Ned im shooting a blueprinted remington with a brux barrel in6.5 creedmoor. 139g lapua scenars lapua brass, large fed match primers. H4350
I plan to practice with it this year to learn to read the wind and shoot f class maybe next year
I only have a few break in shots through it .
Should have my chronograph tomorrow and start some load development friday
Measured my jam point at 2.865
Was planning to work up loads at 2.845 starting around 41g going up to 42g
 
The few break in rounds were last year but a death in the family caused me to put shooting on the back burner ... I put about 20 rounds through it with 41.5 g of h4350 i did not yet have a rest or rear bag but shooting off a picnick table with only a folded towel it shot 1/2moa at 400 yards
 
I don't know that you "need" to add those processes to your reloading procedure to attain accurate reloads depending on you definition of "accuracy".

Without knowing your current reloading process and goals it's difficult to recommend adding or changing anything in your current reloading procedures. In other words, there may be something you can to do in your existing procedure with your existing equipment to enhance accuracy.

How are you sizing your cases?
How are you seating your bullets?
What kind of groups are you getting now and with which caliber?
What kind of bench technique are you using to assess the accuracy of your reloads?

I don't anneal, turn necks, or use mandrels to control neck tension which might sound like reloading heresy but I'm able to produce sub 1/4 moa groups with quality rifles and components using conventional dies.

But hey, it's a hobby and if you want to spend the time and money to experimenting then the precision shooters guys on this web site will guide you in the right direction. I had a friend and for him is was all about bench testing different components / processes to achieve the "one hole group".
 
One thing that "sticks out" to me is are you working up loads then working on seating depth? It can make a HUGE difference! Ask me how I know.
 
Here's a thought ...Find a local F class Match , and go to observe . Look at the equipment being used and observe without getting in the way . During a "Break" period , approach someone who appears to be in charge , and explain your situation . I'm pretty sure they will be more than happy to point you toward one , or several potential mentors . On a personal level , my best advice is to learn as much as you can about brass prep , and the many different processes used by successful shooters . Follow the Woody Hayes mantra ( K-I-S-S ) as you begin your journey down this very deep rabbit-hole . We're all here to help . Well , most of us anyway . ;):D:D:D
 
One piece of advice: only change one thing a a time and keep track of results (i.e. targets with good notes). I see too many people bounce back and forth between seating depth, powder charge, neck tension, etc. If you do it that way, a dart board would give the same or better results. Be systematic about it.
 
Here's a thought ...Find a local F class Match , and go to observe . Look at the equipment being used and observe without getting in the way . During a "Break" period , approach someone who appears to be in charge , and explain your situation
You know i tried this exact approach . unfortunately i found them to be of zero interest in having or helping begining members get into competition
 
High level handloading isn't about buying some tool, or chasing some process. It's about connecting the dots in a complex, multi-dimensional puzzle. It's about pulling together the threads of understanding of a number of disciplines. It's about applying changes and being able to observe and interpret the effect of those changes.

Consistency is important. But consistency alone won't get you there.

Precision is important. But precision alone isn't the answer.

Being able to measure accurately is part of it. But only part.

Sometimes some element is critical in a specific gun, or a particular load. Sometimes, with a different gun, or a different load, that thing doesn't matter nearly as much.

And what works for your buddy down at the range, or your pal here on the forum, may or may not work for you. None of us load ammunition in exactly the same way.

All of which is to say... it's complicated. There's a reason books have been written on the subject. And yet even those who have been doing this for decades and decades strive to learn the next thing. No one ever figures it all out.

Best I can say is to be open and curious, thoughtful and careful.

And keep good notes.
 
I'll add a little insight since I have been asked this question or one exactly like it many times.

In the later post, you mentioned giving F-Class a try, but then also mentioned you were basically shooting from a makeshift set-up off a picnic table. This part of your posting is pivotal since it adds to the picture.

Along with the description of your rig, and without know much detail about your loading process, we know two things that are important, well really three counting the idea that you are probably not a trust fund baby.

You didn't specifically ask for advice on other equipment, but before you go too far down the loading rabbit hole, make sure you understand what F-Class really is, or what shooting "1/4 MOA" really costs in time and money. I would recommend you also consider the style of front rest and rear bags you will want, as well as your scope. That said...

Yes, you are right to assume you will need to up your loading process game when you start asking about F-Class. The F-Class score rings are smaller than the ones used for sling class, so the ammo needs to hold inside the X-Ring or you will eventually get frustrated. Start with a goal of an honest 20 shots inside 1 MOA, then work on 3/4, 1/2 etc. Three strings of 20 shots is not the same as group shooting or agg shooting.

This is when shooting F-Class and Bench Rest begin to differ. Clearly the most accurate ammo is the goal, but you are also looking at needing to evaluate a balance between Benchrest state of the art, versus F-Class demands. Both games are challenging, but while they share many common loading habits, most of us cannot afford the discipline of full up benchrest processing when shooting F-Class or sling. We can also still be very competitive with ammo that won't play at benchrest.

Give the rig a try with what you have now and add the front rest as soon as you can. A poor shooting technique can frustrate you when trying to evaluate any changes to your loading process. If you can't shoot well from a typical prone position, then it wouldn't matter what ammo we feed the gun.

Take the advice of D-4297 and go watch an F-Class match in person. You will see that there is a ranking based on your percentages. It does take some time to climb those levels, so you will have some time to advance your loading process as you gain shooting experience.

I'm sorry to hear they were not welcoming or helpful, but hazing is common in some clubs, but not all. Either find the next one, or be tenacious. Sometimes they act that way to scare off those that are faint of heart cause they won't cut the competition later on anyway. Keep trying and they will see you don't give up easy.

My opinion isn't valuable, but since we are offering it for free, I will say too many folks don't stick with the game when they fail to strike a good balance between the arrow and the Indian. You have a great rig to start out. We are going to have to see what your current loading practice can do before we send you down the rabbit hole. There are many High Masters who's loading process is very basic and does not include many high end steps. They may up their process a little for 1000, but you will find many don't do anything special at 600 for example.

Start by base lining your current loading process at something like 200 yards, and if you feel okay work out to 300. When you can run 20 shots for record and hold a decent score at 300, work out to 600 to see what the wind is like, but don't bother with 600 unless your vertical holds at 300 are good. (In a good rig, even mediocre ammo can compete at 300 yards. The difference in velocity stats start to show from there out.)

Learning wind does take time, but when you are shooting well enough to see the difference between what is your fault versus the ammo, then you are ready for moving up your game. The sooner you can shoot past 300 yards and start at 600, the better.

It is then we can evaluate the contribution of neck prep and load stats. By then, you will start to get the hang of batch controls. There is nothing wrong with doing the research and asking questions ahead of time. These days, tools can take as long to find as materials.

Good reference books are helpful too. I would give a recommendation to the books by Bryan Litz, as well as the ones by the late Glen Zediker on "Top Grade Ammo" and "Hand Loading for Competition".

Be tenacious and don't give up. Ask as many questions as you like, but/and, be prepared to do your own testing. Good Luck!
 
The few break in rounds were last year but a death in the family caused me to put shooting on the back burner ... I put about 20 rounds through it with 41.5 g of h4350 i did not yet have a rest or rear bag but shooting off a picnick table with only a folded towel it shot 1/2moa at 400 yards
Meaning to offense, you can't hope adequately evaluate load development off a "folded towel." Before investing in annealing, neck turning, and concentric equipment, I'd get a quality front and back rest so that you can reliably evaluated your load development.
 
Meaning to offense, you can't hope adequately evaluate load development off a "folded towel." Before investing in annealing, neck turning, and concentric equipment, I'd get a quality front and back rest so that you can reliably evaluated your load development.
Lol ... I should clarify the folded towel was back when i first finished the rifle and couldnt wait to try it ... Rest and bags have been bought since then

Thank you to everyone for taking the time to help
 
Ned im shooting a blueprinted remington with a brux barrel in6.5 creedmoor. 139g lapua scenars lapua brass, large fed match primers. H4350
I plan to practice with it this year to learn to read the wind and shoot f class maybe next year
I only have a few break in shots through it .
Should have my chronograph tomorrow and start some load development friday
Measured my jam point at 2.865
Was planning to work up loads at 2.845 starting around 41g going up to 42g
That rifle is so beautiful, it doesn't really matter if it only prints 1.0 MOA groups ;).

Seriously, before you go down the road of spending more money on additional reloading items that may or may not significantly improve the groups, I'd suggest doing the most careful and consistent load development you can with what you already have. When the barrel is fully broken in and you have a developed load, you will then have a much better idea of how much, if any, improvement may still be on the table.

Although some may not consider it "essential", I'd suggest that regular annealing of your brass will be beneficial. I anneal every firing, and although I cannot definitively prove it makes a noticeable difference in precision, the only way to make a fair comparison is to not anneal for a number of firings, then compare directly, which is something I just don't really want to do. Along that same line of reasoning, careful and consistent brass prep, particularly with regard to maintaining uniform neck tension (interference fit) is important. If the neck tension is not consistent, it is usually possible to tell just by the "feel" of the press handle that something is off. Taking and recording measurements of brass dimensions such as neck diameter, cartridge base-to-shoulder, and diameter above the extractor groove both for every single brass prep you carry out before/after re-sizing can help in maintaining consistency and/or troubleshooting if something is off.

As has also been mentioned, accurate/precise powder weight measurement and carrying out rigorous seating depth testing (i.e. .003" minimum increments over a suitable seating depth range) are also important. My point is that from your initial description, you can likely already accomplish these goals/steps without the addition of neck-turning equipment, mandrels/dies, or a concentricity gauge. So getting the barrel fire-lapped/broken-in and developing the best load you can with what you already have ought to be revealing in terms of whether what reloading equipment you have is already capable of the precision you're after, or whether additional steps are warranted. I wouldn't be surprised of you could achieve the 0.25 MOA precision goal with what you already have. But if not, the groups and velocity data acquired during the initial break-in/load development will likely be of benefit in choosing any additional steps you may wish to add later to the reloading process.
 
Ive been wrestling with the same question. I want to improve my ammo for sling shooting, but where do you start? What's most important? I'd suggest picking up metalic cartridge hand loading by mic mcpherson. Give it a read. Glen zedikers books are pretty good as well. I was doing all kinds of trivial things that really didn't matter for where is was in shooting skill or reloading skill. Doing it again, Id start by buying accurate measuring tools. A very good set of calipers and equally good 0-1" mic. Starett or mitutoyo. Add a neck wall/tubing mic. Sinclair is good. Then a case neck concentricity gauge. Again sinclair works well. Add in a lab scale that goes to .xx grains and a good chronograph. A set of pin gauges is also useful. Now that you can make meaningful measurements you can start determining what in your reloading process can be improved upon the quickest and easiest. If you cant measure it, you can't fix it. Quickly you will find the bad dies, out of square press, junk cases, etc. Those were the real gains that shrank groups. Deburring flash holes and turning necks is a complete waste of time if you can't reliable set the shoulder back consistently everytime without turning your case into a banana.
 
Ive been reloading for about 5 years now . all my shooting has been recreational but with an emphasis on accuracy.
I only reload using quality components and im quite diligent with my working up loads and weighing charges but that is basically the end of my precision ...
I know i need and want to add these processes to my reloading.
Annealing , neck turning , and mandrel expanding dies and a concentrity guage .. But cant buy it all at once.
.. What order would you guys recomend i buy these things in and are there any products i should avoid ..if it matters most of my brass is lapua and dies are rcbs
I don't get it. One can anneal (as I do) with drill holding a socket and a bottle of propane. None of the rest of the items needs to be expensive. I use the Hornady neck turner which is about $100, and their conc. tool which is about the same.

Just get the stuff and get going. Leaving out any of the steps is likely to leave you frustrated.

Well, I should say, "more frustrated." LOL
 

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