Im loading 185gr vlds in my 300wsm savage model 12 for a deer hunt. Ive tried them loaded even with lands, .020 off, .040 off, .080 off. All in front of 68gr of 4831sc. All these group about 1" at 100 yards. I know this gun is capable of much better as it puts 180gr accubonds in the .3s. Should i try a light jam with the vlds? I would really like at least 1/2" - .75 at 100. Any vld shooters have any suggestions?
need berger vld help.
- Thread starter jreedtn
- Start date
I wouldn't jam anything for a hunting load unless you plan on carrying a cleaning rod with you to remove a stuck bullet. I've had loads that were just into the lands become lodged when temperatures dip and they are in the chamber all day. Shoot the Accubonds as all rifles don't like the VLD's and there has been no rhyme or reason as to which ones do for me. Not saying they are bad but can be fussy. JMHO
DennisH
Life Time NRA member
With a hunting rifle, I would stock up on a few boxes of Accu-Bonds (same lot), sight it in, and forget it until hunting season.
I have a 270 that love 130 Accu-Bonds, and a 308 that loves 140 Hornadys. I have had 4 boxes of each for several years now. No need for me to reload with these two.
JMO, Dennis
I have a 270 that love 130 Accu-Bonds, and a 308 that loves 140 Hornadys. I have had 4 boxes of each for several years now. No need for me to reload with these two.
JMO, Dennis
4xforfun
Gold $$ Contributor
VLD's perferr to be jammed. They don't need to be crazy deep into the lands. If you are shooting non turned brass, chances are you will have plenty of neck tension to prevent the bullet sticking in the bbl if you keep the jam to around ten thou.
And, anyone who goes any distance at all away from home to hunt and doesn't bring thier cleaning kit with them is a fool. ANYTHING can happen, and the odds are best that it WILL happen when you are the furthest away from home WITHOUT your kit/tools. I have stuck a bullet or two, but it was always with one of my tight neck, light neck tension match tubes. Never with a "hunting" tube and non turned necks with a little extra neck clearance. They are all jammed to some degree, but the problem is with the match chambers.
And, anyone who goes any distance at all away from home to hunt and doesn't bring thier cleaning kit with them is a fool. ANYTHING can happen, and the odds are best that it WILL happen when you are the furthest away from home WITHOUT your kit/tools. I have stuck a bullet or two, but it was always with one of my tight neck, light neck tension match tubes. Never with a "hunting" tube and non turned necks with a little extra neck clearance. They are all jammed to some degree, but the problem is with the match chambers.
I agree with 4xfor fun and shoot all my VLD's 10 in. In hunting guns if you have enough tension it don't seem to be a problem. My cleaning rod and action cleaning stuff always goes along. You never know when you got to clean dirt out of a barrel. I would try them 5 in and use some tension. It seems my hunting guns shot better with 3 or so neck tension. Matt
Big fan H4350 and F215 in the wsm.
I have used several different vlds in several different guns and found best results about .010" off the lands in all of them.
So far every one started 10 thousandths off the lands, worked up a climbing powder charge in .5 grain increments, basically running a ladder test and found a sweet spot along the way.
With all the fuss over seating depth of vlds: I have always expected trouble.....but never found it.
This has worked 100% every time ..........6 out of 6 or maybe seven out of seven.
I have used several different vlds in several different guns and found best results about .010" off the lands in all of them.
So far every one started 10 thousandths off the lands, worked up a climbing powder charge in .5 grain increments, basically running a ladder test and found a sweet spot along the way.
With all the fuss over seating depth of vlds: I have always expected trouble.....but never found it.
This has worked 100% every time ..........6 out of 6 or maybe seven out of seven.
I shoot Berger VLDs in my 6mm, 6mmBRX and 7mm RSAUM rifles. All are loosely "jammed".
All shoot like lasers. After powder load development I developed again at the sweet spot
varying the OAL and got the group to as small as practical at 200yds. The OAL yelled "please jam me" on all the rifles. My latest was the 7mm with groups of 0.375 in edge to edge. As the
"BR groupies do" subtract the bullet diam [.275] and the groups are teeny weeny. These
are repeatable groups; six groups at 3 shots/group. So I am a happy shooter with the way I do it,
others are happy with no-jam, each to his own. HAPPY SHOOTING, TIS THE SEASON IN FLORIDA!!
All shoot like lasers. After powder load development I developed again at the sweet spot
varying the OAL and got the group to as small as practical at 200yds. The OAL yelled "please jam me" on all the rifles. My latest was the 7mm with groups of 0.375 in edge to edge. As the
"BR groupies do" subtract the bullet diam [.275] and the groups are teeny weeny. These
are repeatable groups; six groups at 3 shots/group. So I am a happy shooter with the way I do it,
others are happy with no-jam, each to his own. HAPPY SHOOTING, TIS THE SEASON IN FLORIDA!!
Hello,
Actually, you might want to try the bullet jump testing that we recommend for the use of our VLD bullets. The following article will do a good job of explaining the procedure that we have found that will work well for you.
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
Posted April 8, 2009
Background
VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).
For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.
Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.
Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.
Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.
After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.â€
We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.
Solution
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spotâ€. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
This article from Eric will help you in developing the proper bullet jump for the optimum accuracy from your rifle. It simply is not the rule of thumb anymore that you want to have the VLD bullet on the lands as it had once been thought.
Bob Blaine
Berger Bullets
Technical Specialist
Actually, you might want to try the bullet jump testing that we recommend for the use of our VLD bullets. The following article will do a good job of explaining the procedure that we have found that will work well for you.
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
Posted April 8, 2009
Background
VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).
For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.
Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.
Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.
Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.
After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.â€
We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.
Solution
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spotâ€. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
This article from Eric will help you in developing the proper bullet jump for the optimum accuracy from your rifle. It simply is not the rule of thumb anymore that you want to have the VLD bullet on the lands as it had once been thought.
Bob Blaine
Berger Bullets
Technical Specialist
It might not be a rule of thumb but none of my match guns ever shot good off. I would listen to Joe Salt and switch to H4350. It has been the powder of choice for the 210 Berger so it should work even better with the lighter bullet. It is a toss up on primers because you are right at the max for a regular primer. If hunting in cold I would shoot Federal 215. Matt
Just because it shoots 1" @ 100 yds don't rule it out, move your testing out to say 300 yards to confirm. My worst loads at 100yd's have on occasion been the most accurate at 800 + yards 
I totally agree with this. Most of my guns will only shoot 3/4 or slightly better at 100 but they will shoot 1 to 1 1/4 at 400. I don't bother testing at 100 because I can't see vertical with my WSM and 210 Bergers. MattFordnutter said:Just because it shoots 1" @ 100 yds don't rule it out, move your testing out to say 300 yards to confirm. My worst loads at 100yd's have on occasion been the most accurate at 800 + yards
jreedtn said:
I have taken a doe with a 338-06 ack shooting a 225 g accubond. .338 goin in and 2" hole coming out. If your shooting .3" shoot groups, you have just found your load. Plus you can get accubonds at the shooters pro shop for half the price. I shot them and the perform like a first.
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