Need advice about what to do with a poor shooting rifle

[okedoke]

i have read all the comments about your rifle & if this gun was mine i would start with the loads x 3 powders, x 3 bullets, x3 cases, on the jamb, .005 off the jamb, .010 off the jamb, etc., also use 1\2 grain increments on the powder. you need to also check tosee if the action was faced squareley with the axis, and make sure the barrel was not over tightened--55-65 ft.\lbs. is ample. over-tight barrels can have some inconsistent vibrations . PS. i'll give 400$ for the gun---take care craig

 

[dksac2]

Whatever you do, do not shoot the Tubbs bullets through a match barrel. If the barrel has problems, no way will the maker take it back after having Tubbs coated bullets shot through it.

They may have their uses, but not many in my opinion, they don't belong anywhere near a custom barrel.
I'm a retired gunsmith. Go through the rifle from front to back. I'd most likely have a good smith look at it. If you need the name of a great smith who will get it to shoot, PM me.

My best, John K

 

[LRPV]

Thanks for the advice on the Tubbs final finish bullets, but as Dkasc2 has said, that is not a good thing to be putting through a match barrel that has been lapped twice anyway. I have had one other guy shoot this rifle, same results. I have not had anyone else load shells for this rifle since I am the person that loads everybody else's shells in our little circle. I have tried different bullets, powder, and primers in different combinations with nothing to show for it. This gun shoots 1" groups @ 100 yards pretty consistently. I shoot and load for many different calibers and rifles and they all shoot better than this rifle. Most are factory, some re-barreled. The gunsmith was previously listed on the top smiths page of this site. Due to financial issues he is no longer in business and is no longer on the list either. I have gotten a lot of advice through this thread as well as pm's and I appreciate it all. I have a plan now and thank you all for the help.
Jason

 

[DCRYDER]

I havent heard anything about the most important thing, the crown. How does it look?

 

[LRPV]

It looks good to the naked eye and under a bore scope. Also passes the Q-tip test. Rifle has been sent back to the barrel manufacturer for further inspection. They nicely offered to check it out, so I let them.
Jason

 

[bozo699]

Thanks for the advice on the Tubbs final finish bullets, but as Dkasc2 has said, that is not a good thing to be putting through a match barrel that has been lapped twice anyway. I have had one other guy shoot this rifle, same results. I have not had anyone else load shells for this rifle since I am the person that loads everybody else's shells in our little circle. I have tried different bullets, powder, and primers in different combinations with nothing to show for it. This gun shoots 1" groups @ 100 yards pretty consistently. I shoot and load for many different calibers and rifles and they all shoot better than this rifle. Most are factory, some re-barreled. The gunsmith was previously listed on the top smiths page of this site. Due to financial issues he is no longer in business and is no longer on the list either. I have gotten a lot of advice through this thread as well as pm's and I appreciate it all. I have a plan now and thank you all for the help.
Jason

Jason,
With 400 some odd rounds fired through it I doubt any barrel maker will consider replacing it.
What do you mean it has been Lapped twice?? hopefully you meant the barrel maker. I don't advocate putting abrasives in a barrel but do you and for that matter all that has posted have any idea how many records and trophies David Tubbs holds? If you read his literature he used his finish on his own rifles, I don't think little old me with no wood hanging from my mantle will dispute his success!
There is not near enough on the table for anyone to make a good suggestion, is this a .22 hornet? if so be very happy with 1" is it a 6ppc, if so you have a right to complain with 1" Are you n/k sizing or f/l sizing? are you bumping the shoulders and how much? I know by reading other post and being in discussions with you in the past you know how to shoot. I had a smith build me a 6.5-06 on a VZ24 Mauser action Hart barrel, McMillian stock, Jewell trigger, Wyatts box magazine with custom bottom metal, badger base and rings and a 3.5-15 NSX, it shot about the same as yours, he did this job for me as a appreciation for all the business I had given him, sent him and always paying up front, he did a beautiful job and I just didn't have the heart to complain or even ask that he recheck it, I just bragged on how well it shot and how much I liked it, as besides being my smith at the time he was a very good friend, and hurting his feelings wasn't a option for me! several years later I got into br shooting and had to change smiths for that type of work as my old smith built hunting rifles, as I started learning more I had my new smith look at this 6.5-06 for me, the action had been trued but not squared, the barrel was so crooked on the action it was ridiculousness, I had it repaired and it will pretty steadily shoot 1/2" @ 100 yds. Another thing I told the original smith I wanted to shoot 140-160 class bullets in it, I assumed he would get the right twist rate for the job, it was a 1:10, I dropped to 100 grain bullets and it is a hammer. The Mauser and Mauser style actions require a little more precise smithing then a 700 as you have to index the barrel for the claw extractor and things like that. Give us more info Jason, and if the barrel maker doesn't have a answer for you we can get this thing shooting for you I think, we just have to go through it one thing at a time, it will probably be something very simple,...it usually is.
Wayne.

 

[LRPV]

The barrel maker deal is just a last man standing thing for me. They are the only ones that haven't checked their work so to speak. The double lapping thing, yes I meant from the barrel maker. And Wayne, we have already discussed this same rifle quite a bit. I'll send you a PM.
Jason

 

[bozo699]

Sorry Jason, as I said in my p.m I didn't realize it was the same rifle, that would be wayyy frustrating!! well over a year you and I talked about it!! I know the Barrel maker and don't see that a issue as it doesn't shoot erratic or bad just not what your looking for, I have owned several of there barrels with no issues. I bought a Shilen premium select match one time that I thought was bad, then one day I switched from all the common 22-250 powders for no real reason to H-4350, the more powder I put in it the better it shot, when I got two thirds into the neck and she really popped and crunched as I seated the 55 grain Nosler BT I stopped there, it is a true .250 and under rifle consistently!! when 1/2" was a good group before and 5/8s the norm. So I can't really say I have ever had a defunct premium barrel. The 1:8 Krieger that is on my 6*284 I never was able to get where I needed it to be competative, it would shoot about 3/4 MOA at 1K, 7.5-10" groups at 1K won't win you any wood I often wondered if it was the barrel but I don't think so.
Wayne.

 

[amlevin]

I tend to fall in with those who mentioned bedding. Not all bedding jobs are equal. If the rifle were mine I'd clamp the stock firmly in a vise and using a dial indicator look for movement at the barrel tip when the action screws are loosened and re tightened by several inch pounds. If the bedding is proper this movement should be minimal. Sometimes, if the pillars aren't true, prematurely tightening the action screws before the bedding has fully cured can put the action in a "bind".

Also, is there bedding material in the stock or was the builder relying solely on an aluminum action block for his "pillar bedding"?

 

[LRPV]

It is a Manners composite stock that was drilled for pillars and sent the stock and pillars were sent to the gunsmith to be installed and bedded by the gunsmith. I contacted the barrel company and explained my problems to them and they graciously offered to check out the rifle for me. They have it in their possession now and I am hoping to hear something back from them this week about it.
Jason

 

[bozo699]

It is a Manners composite stock that was drilled for pillars and sent the stock and pillars were sent to the gunsmith to be installed and bedded by the gunsmith. I contacted the barrel company and explained my problems to them and they graciously offered to check out the rifle for me. They have it in their possession now and I am hoping to hear something back from them this week about it.
Jason

I sure hope they have a answer for you Jason.
Wayne

 

[LRPV]

Well, this rifle has a Bartlein barrel on it. I talked with them on the phone and explained my situation. They offered to look it over for me to see if something was obviously wrong with it. Keep in mind that my "smith" did have a second chance to look over his work and informed me that everything looked good to him. Frank called me once to let me know that the crown was crap and didn't look to them like it had been damaged by cleaning or anything else that I had done just figured that it was not done correctly from the beginning. The second time Frank called it was to tell me that there was NO clearance between the bolt and barrel and they believed that the bolt face had not been touched. I feel like the guys at Bartlein went above and beyond in an attempt to help me out and that is why I am posting this. I really appreciated it guys. The following is the email I got describing what they found.
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Jason, I left a message on your phone earlier. Here is what we all did and found etc...

We retouched up the muzzle crown.

We recut the breech cone of the barrel for more clearance. Also the angle of the breech cone was not correct either. So when we recut the angle of the cone to the proper angle. Once it cut uniformly all the way he took another .005" off. So that's good to go now.

He recut the extractor groove on the breech end of the barrel. The extractor of the bolt was hitting on the bottom side of the cut and was also binding.

We took a little of the bedding on in the stock out on the front side of the recoil lug. We like a little clearance on the front side of the lug on all of our rifles to help prevent binding in the bedding as well.

John also shortened up your magazine box a little more so there are no issues there.

If the action threads where recut or trued or the bolt face or receiver face was trued we couldn't tell. Our guess is nothing was done. Especially if the threads where suppose to be opened up to 1.062 like a Remington. As far as we are concerned it's a standard Win. Mod. 70 thread size.

Hopefully the barrel isn't to far gone from being shot out etc...and you can still get some use out of it etc...

When you shoot it let me know how it works either way.

Sorry for the problems.

Later, Frank
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Chris Matthews AKA Longshotrifles LLC was the gunsmith I hired to build this rifle.

I thought about this all day and I was going to be a bigger man and not mention the name but then I remembered asking Chris how much he had to do to the action to get it squared up and he looked me in the eye and said something to the point of it being pretty out of whack and had to take quite a bit off of the receiver face to get it square. In the planning stages, I did a lot of reading and noticed on a more well known gunsmith's website it was recommended to open up the action tenon to 1.062 x 16 tpi. (very highly recommended for all calibers, a must for magnums). I didn't understand why this would matter but asked Chris if he did this too and was told "yes that is how he would do it".

I have held up for Chris over the past few months asking people to give him a chance to make things right with them even to the point that I think I might have made some of them mad at me too. If a man has nothing material left in the world he still has his word and that means something to me. I feel like I was taken advantage of because of my own ignorance. Part of the money I paid him was for a job that was never done, part of it went to a job that was not done correctly. Then in a further display of my ignorance I burnt up what I am sure was a perfectly good barrel in an attempt to find a load that would shoot better than 1 MOA. I doubt that Chris will have a large back load of rifles to build in the future and I didn't want to drag him down any farther than he already was, BUT I also think I owe it to others to tell my story in order for them to be able to make a better informed decision. Thanks for nothing Chris and you won't see me coming next time.

Jason Walker

 

[bozo699]

Jason,
That is truly sad news, I was afraid of that per our p.m conversations, I am however glad you have some closure on the subject, my only advice I can further give you is to not dwell on it and move forward as I am sure you are already are doing, I hope the rifle shoots well but I have my doubts on the chamber and machine work on the action, if by chance you can get it to shoot under 1 moa maybe you will be best off finishing off that tube then have a smith build you another on that action and have the new smith start from scratch, tell him of the problems he may be dealing with so there are no surprises for you or him, best of luck my friend.
Wayne.

 

[LRPV]

I got the rifle back today. I had ran out of powder so I started on a new jug and just worked back up to where I had been with the new lot#. Groups with the 107SMK are a little better, 4- 3 shot groups were all under 1" today. Tried a few charges with 105 hybrids and they were just a touch better than with the SMKs. These were with virgin brass too and they usually shoot better the 2nd time around. Maybe with some more time I can find something that will suffice as minute of coyote but I'm not holding my breath. I won't be happy with it till it's gone or rebuilt the right way. The bolt at least works better now. I can't believe I was so stupid to keep trying with this thing. I should have known something wasn't right, but I kept getting told it was me and could NOT be the rifle.

To the guys on this forum that tried to help, you are the best and I really appreciate it.
Thanks, Jason

 

[bozo699]

I got the rifle back today. I had ran out of powder so I started on a new jug and just worked back up to where I had been with the new lot#. Groups with the 107SMK are a little better, 4- 3 shot groups were all under 1" today. Tried a few charges with 105 hybrids and they were just a touch better than with the SMKs. These were with virgin brass too and they usually shoot better the 2nd time around. Maybe with some more time I can find something that will suffice as minute of coyote but I'm not holding my breath. I won't be happy with it till it's gone or rebuilt the right way. The bolt at least works better now. I can't believe I was so stupid to keep trying with this thing. I should have known something wasn't right, but I kept getting told it was me and could NOT be the rifle.

To the guys on this forum that tried to help, you are the best and I really appreciate it.
Thanks, Jason

Jason,
You aren't stupid at all, from what I have seen just the opposite! What happened has happened to most all of us at times,......we want it to shoot so bad and we try so hard we overlook the obvious and our ears can be deaf. Use this experience as a stepping stone, and learn from it, I have done what you did time after time again,...who is stupid??....I have finally learned that if it won't shoot, won't fit or doesn't work,....STOP!! regroup look things over and start over, if it still isn't happening, get some help,...a second opinion. I am confident it won't take you multiple tries, I am sure you have learned on this one, it is to bad as if you had stopped you would have some extra barrel life left, use what is left of it to shoot some varmints and form enough brass for your next barrel, then it won't be a total loss, it will have been of some use, take care my friend and best of luck
Wayne.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have been following this page, I kind of had a feeling of barrel mfg. Keep us updated if it shoots any better. I just went through the exact same thing with the same barrel mfg. But mine was a benchrest rifle. With custom action. After 2 months I got the gun back. Same thing, not enough clearance around bolt nose. Gun still shot the same. Called back to offer last chance to help me, nope. Gun now shoots well with a broughton. I hope you have better luck.

 

[LRPV]

I haven't been playing it much lately. It does seem to be better now than that it was. With it being a 6-284 I knew barrel life wouldn't be that long anyway but I also didn't think it would take 500+ rounds to find a load for it. I wouldn't shoot it even 50 times a year normally so I've put 10 years worth of wear on it in less than a year. It is a little odd that it shot just as good or not better before I had it worked on. When I bought it, it was a 22-250 chromoly barrel that was almost a smooth bore, unbedded in a maple varmint type stock. It would shoot 1/2 to 3/4 with the right load but always "2 grouped". I have thought about screwing that old barrel back on to see how it would shoot now.

This rifle the way it is now sometimes puts 2 through the same hole and then the next one will jump way off. No rhyme nor reason for it. I have problems necking down the 6.5 brass. They end up with quite a bit of run out until I fire them, then they are fine. I'm going to fire form the rest of the brass that I have and then probably have someone build this rifle. Hopefully right this time. Maybe I should go with a different barrel maker this time too from the sound of your problem. Bartlein did do what work they did on mine for nothing and even shipped it back for free but I mailed them a check to help cover shipping.

With all the questionable work done on this gun I guess I'm not ready to blame the barrel for all the problems. This was my first half way custom build too so I was lost through the whole project.
Jason