I am not new to reloading but I am new to reloading for .223 Remington. I recently purchased a new Savage Model 12 LRPV with a 1-9" twist rate. I am planning on useing 68 to 77 grain match bullets. I have a good supply of Lapua, Remington, and Lake City brass. I am planning on shooting 100 to 600 yard bench type matches (Varmint for score). Please give me some direction on powder choices and primer choices. How far off of the lans should I seat the bullet? Any suggestions would be helpful. Is the .223 Remington an effective cartridge at 1000 yards or would it make more sense to make it a switch barrel and go to a 6BR or whatever? I will be grateful for any information you can pass on to me. Thanks much, Richard Ramsey, North Ridgeville, Ohio
Need .223 Remington Reloading Advice and Direction
- Thread starter rramsey
- Start date
Richard,
you have a fine rifle there that should shoot well (I have one in .204 Ruger that is amazing for a factory gun).
You're rather limited bullet weight and range wise by the 1-9" twist. try 77s, but they may not perform well in this twist rate - they're pretty marginal. Anyway, their BC is not that great - lower than the 75gn Hornady A-Max. The 9" twist is well suited to the 68/69s - Sierra, Nosler, Hornady, and Lapua HPBT match bullets will all do well in it. The Berger 73gn Match BT is another good bullet. These 68-73s will do well up to 600yd, although they get blown around a lot at 600.
You can just get away usually with the 75gn Hornady A-Max that has a rather higher BC and is therefore better beyond 300yd. It can also be driven fast from your 26" barrel before you run into pressure problems. It may be worth trying some of the 70gn VLDs too for this reason, but they are usually fussy as to seating depth.
Powders? Hodgdon VarGet is difficult to beat with the 75gn A-Max and works well too with the 68-70 grainers. Reloder 15 is another good powder, but is said to be more temperature sensitive than VarGet (not a problem for us on this side of the Atlantic though!). With the 68-70s, H4895 is a good alternative as is Viht N135 and N140. Win 748 was long a favourite with 69s, but is a might spikey, so you have to use it with care. Other good ball powders are AA-2460 and 2520 that give very high MVs, but are dirty and leave a really hard fouling on case-necks that is a sod to remove.
Lighter match bullets in the 52-53gn range and the 55gn Nosler Ballistic Tip often do very well at short ranges and can be shot at high MVs, but see more wind drift than the heavier bullets beyond 200yd. If you try them, go to slightly faster burning powders - N133, H322, Benchmark, AA-2230 and similar.
The Sierra, Lapua and Nosler 69s plus the Berger 73gn models are all very jump-tolerant as they're designed to be loaded to magazine length of 2.25-2.26" COAL for match AR15s that are throated for 80gn bullets, hence make a huge jump from case-mouth to rifling. Try around 10 thou' off the rifling to start with and they'll usually perform well at that. With your rifle you don't worry about your COAL of course provided the bullet is still deeply seated enough for some support. You can manage with as little as a tenth of an inch of bearing surface in the case-neck if the LRPV is long-throated, but double that is better and the extra jump to the rifling is unlikely to affect accuracy to any extent, or even at all.
Brass is critical in this little cartridge - thick-wallled cases reduce capacity and increase pressures. The later Lapua (cartons marked 'Match') are very good in this respect, and strong too, as well as very well made. Earlier Lapua is like most military brass - thick and heavy so you can't get maximum MVs before running into pressure problems. Winchester is good capacity-wise but not as consistent as Lapua in weights or in neck thickness. It's cheaper than Lapua, but doesn't last as long. Don't expect particualrly long case life if you run at maximum loads for long ranges - primer pockets soon loosen, although Lapua outlives the others usually.
Primers - I'd strongly recommed SR magnums of BR types. You don't need the more powerful explosive content, but do need their harder cups otherwise you'll get cratering, even pierced examples before you get up to full pressures and MVs. CCI-450, CCI-BR4, Rem 71/2BR have all worked well in myt rifles, although Brazilian CBC Magtech 71/2s if you ever see them (and they're cheaper too). I haven't any experience with Federal 205Ms so can't cooment on them. Russian Wolf SRMs may be worth trying too.
1,000yd - you'll really struggle with bullets in the 70gn class at that range. The only one I'd suggest of those I've mentioned is the 75gn A-Max if it shoots well in your rifle. You'll be subsonic though at 1,000 unless you can jack the MV up to a full 3,000 fps. In a 10 mph crosswind, the bullet still drifts 108" or 10-MOA at that range compared to a .308W loaded with the Berger 155.5gn BT FULLBORE or 155gn Lapua Scenar which drift 91". In practice, you're more likely to be running at slightly lower MVs which sees these bullets subsonic after 900yd and drift even more in the wind. The 75gn A-Max flies true though even on passing through the sound barrier - I know, I used to use it at this range. One problem is you keep having to shout to get the target pulled as a little subsonic bullet and tiny hole in the paper make it diificult for the butts crew to recognise a shot.
For 1,000yd you really want a 1-8" twist or the alternative LRPV rate of 1-7" that let you use the highest BC examples of 80s and 82s that are much better suited to this range, although they have trouble competing with a good .308 nevertheless.
You'll need a sloped (20-MOA) scope rail if you plan to shoot at 1,000 as you have to make over 35-MOA of come-up from a 100yd zero with 75gn A-Maxes at 2,900 fps, more with other bullets, unless shooting in a heatwave on a mountain top.
It's great little cartridge and you can have a lot of fun shooting at long range. I wish you well.
Finally, look at the .223 Rem section on the main 6mmBR website. There is lots of good information, advice and loads data available there.
Laurie,
York, England
you have a fine rifle there that should shoot well (I have one in .204 Ruger that is amazing for a factory gun).
You're rather limited bullet weight and range wise by the 1-9" twist. try 77s, but they may not perform well in this twist rate - they're pretty marginal. Anyway, their BC is not that great - lower than the 75gn Hornady A-Max. The 9" twist is well suited to the 68/69s - Sierra, Nosler, Hornady, and Lapua HPBT match bullets will all do well in it. The Berger 73gn Match BT is another good bullet. These 68-73s will do well up to 600yd, although they get blown around a lot at 600.
You can just get away usually with the 75gn Hornady A-Max that has a rather higher BC and is therefore better beyond 300yd. It can also be driven fast from your 26" barrel before you run into pressure problems. It may be worth trying some of the 70gn VLDs too for this reason, but they are usually fussy as to seating depth.
Powders? Hodgdon VarGet is difficult to beat with the 75gn A-Max and works well too with the 68-70 grainers. Reloder 15 is another good powder, but is said to be more temperature sensitive than VarGet (not a problem for us on this side of the Atlantic though!). With the 68-70s, H4895 is a good alternative as is Viht N135 and N140. Win 748 was long a favourite with 69s, but is a might spikey, so you have to use it with care. Other good ball powders are AA-2460 and 2520 that give very high MVs, but are dirty and leave a really hard fouling on case-necks that is a sod to remove.
Lighter match bullets in the 52-53gn range and the 55gn Nosler Ballistic Tip often do very well at short ranges and can be shot at high MVs, but see more wind drift than the heavier bullets beyond 200yd. If you try them, go to slightly faster burning powders - N133, H322, Benchmark, AA-2230 and similar.
The Sierra, Lapua and Nosler 69s plus the Berger 73gn models are all very jump-tolerant as they're designed to be loaded to magazine length of 2.25-2.26" COAL for match AR15s that are throated for 80gn bullets, hence make a huge jump from case-mouth to rifling. Try around 10 thou' off the rifling to start with and they'll usually perform well at that. With your rifle you don't worry about your COAL of course provided the bullet is still deeply seated enough for some support. You can manage with as little as a tenth of an inch of bearing surface in the case-neck if the LRPV is long-throated, but double that is better and the extra jump to the rifling is unlikely to affect accuracy to any extent, or even at all.
Brass is critical in this little cartridge - thick-wallled cases reduce capacity and increase pressures. The later Lapua (cartons marked 'Match') are very good in this respect, and strong too, as well as very well made. Earlier Lapua is like most military brass - thick and heavy so you can't get maximum MVs before running into pressure problems. Winchester is good capacity-wise but not as consistent as Lapua in weights or in neck thickness. It's cheaper than Lapua, but doesn't last as long. Don't expect particualrly long case life if you run at maximum loads for long ranges - primer pockets soon loosen, although Lapua outlives the others usually.
Primers - I'd strongly recommed SR magnums of BR types. You don't need the more powerful explosive content, but do need their harder cups otherwise you'll get cratering, even pierced examples before you get up to full pressures and MVs. CCI-450, CCI-BR4, Rem 71/2BR have all worked well in myt rifles, although Brazilian CBC Magtech 71/2s if you ever see them (and they're cheaper too). I haven't any experience with Federal 205Ms so can't cooment on them. Russian Wolf SRMs may be worth trying too.
1,000yd - you'll really struggle with bullets in the 70gn class at that range. The only one I'd suggest of those I've mentioned is the 75gn A-Max if it shoots well in your rifle. You'll be subsonic though at 1,000 unless you can jack the MV up to a full 3,000 fps. In a 10 mph crosswind, the bullet still drifts 108" or 10-MOA at that range compared to a .308W loaded with the Berger 155.5gn BT FULLBORE or 155gn Lapua Scenar which drift 91". In practice, you're more likely to be running at slightly lower MVs which sees these bullets subsonic after 900yd and drift even more in the wind. The 75gn A-Max flies true though even on passing through the sound barrier - I know, I used to use it at this range. One problem is you keep having to shout to get the target pulled as a little subsonic bullet and tiny hole in the paper make it diificult for the butts crew to recognise a shot.
For 1,000yd you really want a 1-8" twist or the alternative LRPV rate of 1-7" that let you use the highest BC examples of 80s and 82s that are much better suited to this range, although they have trouble competing with a good .308 nevertheless.
You'll need a sloped (20-MOA) scope rail if you plan to shoot at 1,000 as you have to make over 35-MOA of come-up from a 100yd zero with 75gn A-Maxes at 2,900 fps, more with other bullets, unless shooting in a heatwave on a mountain top.
It's great little cartridge and you can have a lot of fun shooting at long range. I wish you well.
Finally, look at the .223 Rem section on the main 6mmBR website. There is lots of good information, advice and loads data available there.
Laurie,
York, England
rramsey...I too have a Savage,M12,LRPV,.223 Rem,1/9 twist,Leupold 36X,Savage F-class stock,skim bedded. After 2 years of trying to find a load,I've settled on
69gn Sierra,.010" off "just"
23.5gn/VV N135
Lapua brass-neck turned to .0125",& .247" nk bushing
Fed 205's
This gun/load combination will consistantly shoot 5 shot groups under 1/2" @ 200yds from a good solid rest using wind flags in good conditions. I don't have any experience past 200yds.
Good luck & good shooting....gpoldblue
69gn Sierra,.010" off "just"
23.5gn/VV N135
Lapua brass-neck turned to .0125",& .247" nk bushing
Fed 205's
This gun/load combination will consistantly shoot 5 shot groups under 1/2" @ 200yds from a good solid rest using wind flags in good conditions. I don't have any experience past 200yds.
Good luck & good shooting....gpoldblue
Richard: A wealth of information from Laurie, above, very little I can add, but will say: all my 1-9 twist 223's easily favor the 69 gr. Sierra HPBT #1380. Have tried others, including the 68 gr. Hornady HPBT Match, but always return to the Sierra. Varget is always the preferred powder, CCI400 for milder loads, CCIBR4 for near max combinations. This is one of the easiest cartridges I have to load for: give it quality bullets, and almost anything seems to work. 
k80skeet
Silver $$ Contributor
I have a rifle just like yours. It shoots everything very well 50gr - 77gr The very best load I have found is 25.0 grains of Winchester #748 69gr Sierre Match Kings Federal 205M set right on the lands sub .2's Also the 70gr. Berger VLD's shoot almost as well. The 73gr Berger Target with 24.0 of Winchesrer #748 is another great load sub.3's I haven't found anything that won't shoot under a 1/2" in the 40gr-77gr range. (all 5 shot groups) It is a great rifle for the money. You won't be disapointed. I have not found that brass makes a difference Rrmington, Winchester or Lapua all work great.
If you load at the bench, try AA2230 or W748.
I use AA2230, Benchmark, R15 and Varget for bullets 36gr Barnes VG to 75gr Hornady BTHP with my 1:9 twist 20in AR. I got some 73gr Bergers loaded waiting for another range day.
69gr SMK have been great, as have the varmint tipped bullets and 52gr Sierra.
I use AA2230, Benchmark, R15 and Varget for bullets 36gr Barnes VG to 75gr Hornady BTHP with my 1:9 twist 20in AR. I got some 73gr Bergers loaded waiting for another range day.
69gr SMK have been great, as have the varmint tipped bullets and 52gr Sierra.
.223 is competitive at 1000 yards with 80-90gr bullets when the wind isn't a factor.
for 90gr, 1:7 twist barrel
for 80gr, 1:8 twist
Read lots of stories of your Savage model handling 75gr A-max, even with 1:9twist.
With 26in barrel, you should be able to run a 69gr SMK to 3100fps.
for 90gr, 1:7 twist barrel
for 80gr, 1:8 twist
Read lots of stories of your Savage model handling 75gr A-max, even with 1:9twist.
With 26in barrel, you should be able to run a 69gr SMK to 3100fps.
I am forever bemused that a second rate groundhog cartridge is the focus of so much technical acumen. The Canadian Army in its wisdom has also adopted the 5.56 NATO as its infantry cartridge and some DCRA members are shooting the damn thing out to 1000 yards, a few surprisingly well which is a testament to their skill.
In an attempt to reach the elusive 3000 fps with heavy bullets, .223 are routinely loaded to max pressure. Magnum primers must be used to handle these pressures. Reamers for the .223 are short-throated for the AR15 magazine which forces deep seating of heavy bullets which exacerbates the pressure problem.
Getting rained on is fairly common for fullbore shooters. A wet cartridge in a chamber will form a hydraulic lock. The brass has nowhere to expand upon firing. A cartridge operating at max pressure will blow the primer which is a common occurence with the .223 on a rainy day. A good friend I have known for 40 years has debris imbedded in the skin under his right eye from such an incident with a .223.
Any 9 twist .223 I have owned is more accurate with 69s than 75s, 8 twist more accurate with 75s than 80s. Never owned a 7 twist.
My 8 twist MacLennon barrel is most accurate with 75 AMax moly, H4895, CCI 450, Win brass. Chronos at 2900 fps. Use it in F Class for Sierra 300 metre or the 300 yard target in an ORA/DCRA programme.
75 and 80 AMax will deform if seated over a compressed powder charge because of their thin jackets. This requires a faster powder than used with Sierra Match Kings. The Sierra bullets have a tougher jacket and will not deform over a compressed charge.
In an attempt to reach the elusive 3000 fps with heavy bullets, .223 are routinely loaded to max pressure. Magnum primers must be used to handle these pressures. Reamers for the .223 are short-throated for the AR15 magazine which forces deep seating of heavy bullets which exacerbates the pressure problem.
Getting rained on is fairly common for fullbore shooters. A wet cartridge in a chamber will form a hydraulic lock. The brass has nowhere to expand upon firing. A cartridge operating at max pressure will blow the primer which is a common occurence with the .223 on a rainy day. A good friend I have known for 40 years has debris imbedded in the skin under his right eye from such an incident with a .223.
Any 9 twist .223 I have owned is more accurate with 69s than 75s, 8 twist more accurate with 75s than 80s. Never owned a 7 twist.
My 8 twist MacLennon barrel is most accurate with 75 AMax moly, H4895, CCI 450, Win brass. Chronos at 2900 fps. Use it in F Class for Sierra 300 metre or the 300 yard target in an ORA/DCRA programme.
75 and 80 AMax will deform if seated over a compressed powder charge because of their thin jackets. This requires a faster powder than used with Sierra Match Kings. The Sierra bullets have a tougher jacket and will not deform over a compressed charge.
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