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Neck turning ?

What angle cutters are recommended for 308 and 223?
You may want to call and ask. They also recommend getting the carbide arbor if your turning a lot, Keeps the heat down. I talked with them the other day. But on their website, if you click the different turners links on their site, I think they list what calibers and what angles are for what.
 
Thanks for the response. I guess it leads to one thing, cartridge neck clearance. And the reason I ask is because I have read several threads where some people say that turning to .001 clearance is where you should be at, and then I also read in a thread in here by some of the notable shooters that there is not difference if it’s .001 or .003 or more. I don’t know if I’m making sense or not. They are saying that an overly tight fit does not make a difference from one that is not. Turning being necessary none the less
Much of this depends on what your rifle likes.
I have a .284 with a .313 neck (tight neck), I started with .003 clearance and ended up closer to .0045, it just wasn't happy with .003. I also have a 6 dasher with a .272 no turn neck that shoots smaller at 600 when I lightly skim turn the brass (80-90% cleanup).
CW
 
It’s a culmination of a million little things for precision reloading. I think he’s simply stating that in a factory chamber as long as you’re using proper sizing techniques the amount of benefit from turned brass will be extremely minimal. In theory I can see that turning when done right leads to great concentricity but the practice is geared more for tighter necks then a factory gun. Customs sometimes like the smaller necks in the chamber for tight and precise fitting. With factory chambers you can still load very concentric and consistent rounds Personally I wouldn’t turn necks unless I had a custom chamber that required it. There’s other things that come first imo. Like annealing, figuring out what sizing works best for you, cleaning your chamber and brass, precise bullet seating, etc Please some one correct me if I’m wrong though.

Depends on what level of accuracy/precision that is satisfactory for you. I have never seen a piece of brass that neck thickness was the same no matter where it was measured......Lapua included. They all vary...some more than others. The thinner side of that neck will be pushed away from the bullet bearing surface first when the cartridge is fired. Neck turning,even "skim turning" helps....It's all about uniformity and trying to keep the bullet in alignment with the bore axis. Personally,I uniform primer pockets and debur flash holes on everyhthing I reload for...rifles and handguns. Handgun cartridges don't get neck turned,but my rifles do.

Good shooting...be safe. Dan
 
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The Redding website Bushing FAQ tells you how to select your bushing size printed in red below. "BUT"........You may not like dragging the long Redding expander through the case neck, and a expander die may be prefered.

And a standard Forster full length die with a honed neck using the Forster expander may be a better choice with factory chambers

The methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/140-bushing-selection
Bushing Selection
There has been some confusion regarding the correct diameter bushing that should be used with Redding Bushing Style Sizing Dies. The most common misconception is that the bushing diameter is determined by the neck diameter of fired cases or the neck diameter of the chamber that the reloaded ammunition will be fired in. The bushing diameter is related to the chamber neck diameter, but only indirectly, in that the loaded cartridges must have adequate clearance at the neck to allow the bullet to be released properly upon firing.*
The easiest way to determine the proper diameter bushing is to measure the neck diameter of several loaded or dummy cartridges with an accurate micrometer. (These dummy cartridges can be loaded with your old set of dies or a borrowed set.) Then, simply subtract 0.001" from the cartridge that had the smallest average measurement. This will allow for a slight amount of spring back and create a proper press fit for the bullet.

Another method of determining bushing size, is to measure the neck wall thickness of the cartridge cases with a ball type or tubing micrometer. Double this measurement and add the bullet diameter to calculate the neck diameter of a loaded cartridge. As above, subtract 0.001" from this figure to determine bushing size. This method is the least desirable of the two, as a ball micrometer is fairly expensive and more difficult to read consistently than a conventional micrometer.

If you're starting with new cases, the neck wall thickness can be determined as above with a ball micrometer, or you can seat boat-tail bullets in a few cases and measure their neck diameter. Generally, the neck diameter of new cases is small enough to hold a bullet without sizing. As a last resort, you can measure the neck wall thickness of the cases with a caliper. Be aware that you may not select the correct bushing on the first try when using a caliper to measure neck wall thickness, due to the reduced measuring accuracy of the caliper.

The above methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter.

After loading your first few cartridges, it's a good idea to test the grip that the case neck is exerting on the bullet. The simplest method to perform this test is to press the tip of the loaded cartridge against the edge of your reloading bench with moderate pressure. The bullet should not be seated deeper in the case if you have sized at least one caliber of the case neck. If the bullet is seated deeper in the case, switch to the next smaller size bushing and start again.

It has come to our attention through customer calls and our own use of the bushing style sizing dies that in certain instances, a given neck sizing bushing will produce a case neck diameter that can be several thousandths of an inch smaller than the actual diameter of the bushing. This idiosyncrasy occurs when the neck diameter of the fired case is a great deal larger than the diameter of the neck sizing bushing, such as occurs when factory chambers are on the large side of the tolerance range and the brass is on the thin side. Typically, we have not noticed any problems until the case neck is reduced more than 0.008-0.010".

Solutions include, increasing bushing diameter to compensate and/or the use of a size button. Reducing the neck diameter in two smaller steps by using an intermediate diameter bushing will also help. More concentric necks will also result using this method, as the case necks are stressed less during sizing. Don't forget to properly chamfer the inside and outside of the case mouths and apply a light coating of lubricant to the case necks before sizing.

To determine bushing range for standard calibers see "Bushing Range Chart"

If you have any further questions, please feel free to call our technical support line.

* We recommend that the neck diameter of the largest loaded cartridges measure at least 0.002-0.003" smaller than fired cases measured at the same location. This ensures that there is a clearance of at least 0.001-0.0015" all around the neck of the loaded cartridge. This clearance allows the case neck to expand and safely release the bullet upon firing.
 
Much of this depends on what your rifle likes.
I have a .284 with a .313 neck (tight neck), I started with .003 clearance and ended up closer to .0045, it just wasn't happy with .003. I also have a 6 dasher with a .272 no turn neck that shoots smaller at 600 when I lightly skim turn the brass (80-90% cleanup).
CW
I guess that is my point. I don’t know what the clearance is on my unturned brass and my chamber. I want to slap myself for not asking kreiger when they made my barrel. I am gonna do a chamber cast to see what it is. But I’m theory, if I lightly turn the brass and there is .003-004 clearance, “in theory” it may actually still help accuracy even tho it’s not a “tight neck” chamber? I guess I’m just inquiring why it is a hard/fast rule that turning would not benefit a factory chamber. In the mean while not trying to doubt what anybody says, just trying to understand
 
Have any once fired brass from your chamber? What does the neck measure? More than likely, you can just look up what the SAAMI specs call for and be good to go.
 
I guess that is my point. I don’t know what the clearance is on my unturned brass and my chamber. I want to slap myself for not asking kreiger when they made my barrel. I am gonna do a chamber cast to see what it is. But I’m theory, if I lightly turn the brass and there is .003-004 clearance, “in theory” it may actually still help accuracy even tho it’s not a “tight neck” chamber?
Measure your fired brass, the chamber should be about .0005 to .001 larger. Measure a loaded round and subtract the difference..... that should get you really close.
It was not hard to prove that "cleaning up" the necks improved accuracy in my no-turn chamber.
CW
 
Have any once fired brass from your chamber? What does the neck measure? More than likely, you can just look up what the SAAMI specs call for and be good to go.
I do. I have several times fired brass. I just know even though I anneal there may or may not be spring back. But I will give that technique a whirl. Thanks P.s. sorry TrxR if thread got hijacked
 
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What clearance should be is dependent on many things.

In my 6 PPC, I ran 1.5 thou per side. Same in my 30 Major and 30 BR. In my 284 Shehane, I ran 3 thou per side. All are neck turned.

In my 7x47 Lapua chambers...three of them...I’m at a skosh over .309 with a .3156 (that’s what it says ;) ) neck reamer. That’s 3.3 per side and it’s a no turn neck. Shoots awesome.

The thing about neck turning is that it often doesn’t yield any noticeable improvement. I tend to avoid it when the overall situation allows me to.
 
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All my rifles have off the shelf SAAMI factory chambers and I have a Hornady neck turning tool.

What I have noticed is standard grade Remington, Winchester and Lake City cases will very in neck thickness. And it may not vary more than a few thousandths but they have much thicker necks at the bottom half of the neck above the shoulder junction.

I do not cleanup the necks 100% when I neck turn and try to keep it between 50% to 75%. And understand this gives you a more uniform neck tension "BUT" I have never seen any major improvements with group sizes. But this may be from drinking too much coffee and having chronologically gifted eyesight...................or the Bushnell Banner Scopes. :D

And I have heard hundreds of times neck turning is a waste of time with a factory chamber. But I always have to learn the hard way and I'm retired with nothing to do and all day to do it. So I minimum neck turn to pass the time and hope I didn't screw up the brass.
 
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Question,
Has anyone won a national level benchrest competition, either short range or long range that did not turn their necks?
CW
 
When I first started shooting centerfire benchrest, many, if not most, long range benchrest shooters were shooting a no-turn neck 6 BR and doing quite well.

There are lots of components of the total shooting system. You are often better off concentrating on lower hanging fruit than turning necks on Lapua brass in SAAMI cartridges in SAAMI chambers.

Now, if you are shooting something else, all bets are off. Neck turning might be required, it might be a waste of time, or anywhere in between. It just depends.
 
Question,
Has anyone won a national level benchrest competition, either short range or long range that did not turn their necks?
CW
It’s a different path you go down. Just like the tons of other variables. To jump into that pool it’s smart to do what’s being done. Sure they turn but they also have custom chambers and can most likely spout off thier chamber neck clearance from the top of thier head and probably even a couple ways they tried it like GSPV did. So to be pc it is required. I wish I was doing it but I’m just not ready to get into those waters. I’m just now starting to anneal. And no custom chamber yet ...
 
Over the last 25yrs i havent seen a single lapua case that didnt need to be turned to enter into a registered match. Theres not a case made that doesnt need to be turned to enter into a match that matters
What if it is the rifle stage of a three gun match? Would you run a chamber that even noticed that your brass, of any brand, was neck turned?
 
I guess once you get bit by the reloading bug it never ends . I don't neck turn or anneal but have read up on it . You have to be careful of the base of the neck an top of the shoulder area it forms a donut effect when using bushing dies . I have the Redding S Type bushing die set but went back to the full length non bushing die for sizing. Redding Competition Seating die for seating .
 
I noticed I got much more uniform turning at the neck shoulder junction using the WFT trimmer that trims off the shoulder.

And if the cases are trimmed off the base of the case you have more variations deeper into the neck shoulder junction. Meaning brass spring back at the shoulder after sizing and why the WFT gives more uniform results.

And I know some of the hard core neck turners are saying WTF. :rolleyes:

Gentlemen start your drill engines.

p_749013292_5..jpg
 
.... snip...........Last question is who makes a good economical neck turn setup and what all is needed to do 2 different calibers? Thanks

Short answer.......... nobody. You are trying to perform a precision operation to remove a tiny bit of metal from one side of the neck so that the thickness is uniform. And, perhaps more importantly, you want the last of a 300 round batch to be identical to the first one you turned. That requires a pretty good piece of equipment and that means it isn't going to be be cheap.

I use a 21st Century lathe and cutter head which costs just enough to make you choke. But it is VERY good and makes neck turning a joy rather than an unplesant and frustrating experience. I highly recommend you at least consider the 21st Century lathe and cutter head.

If it were me, I'd try to make all the brass identical before starting. That would mean annealing every case and sizing it so that the neck is slightly smaller than the expanding mandrel. Then I would insert the expanding mandrel and turn the brass to a uniform thickness.
 

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