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Neck turning

Hello, Gents! I haven't been here in quite a while and I've had solid success producing hBN ICP's, but now..........
I'm into neck turning. I've accomplished very tight repeatable groups with a semi-auto rifle, but I'd like to take the final step.

I have everything I need for neck turning except the decision on a digital wall thickness gage. I've narrowed it down to a few options, and I need some help with a clarifying explanation for each.

The first is this one............
http://www.brownells.com/reloading/measuring-tools/micrometers/digital-thickness-gauge-prod36561.aspx

Second.......

http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/micrometers/sinclair-digital-case-neck-micrometer-prod38161.aspx

And third...........
RCBS



I've opted for a digital readout because Dad's eyes are no longer what they were and seeing the fine increment lines is pretty difficult for him, and having been my long time mentor, I want to keep him in the loop with this last step. He's taught me everything he knows in his 60 years of reloading, but neck truing/turning is something he's never done.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Latigo
 
Thanks, but this is not a simple AR. It's too long of a story to post, but please understand that all I'm really asking for is a bit of guidance for a case wall thickness gage from someone who has them.
Thanks

Latigo
 
I'd go with your second option. I have the first one and it is lacking in quality by a long shot. The RCBS looks like it has a lot of potential for movement while measuring - I have no experience with it or the second option. I currently use a Mitutuyo tube micrometer (non-digital).

Dennis
 
If you're careful the rcbs unit can give accurate and repeatable readings. It does take a bit of finesse though.
 
Thanks. Geno. I always thought I had finesse, but my wife doesn't agree with that one. ;D
I do like the versatility in function, but I think the RCBS requires maybe too much attention if I'm doing 50 at a time.

This rifle is a Semi-Auto for sure........... but not an AR. It's one of the only three triple pillared High Masters M1 Garands ever built by Don McCoy. Even though it will take the usual 8 rounds, it's used as a single shot in competition. It came with it's own video from Mr. McCoy with him walking through the complete build on this particular rifle.

The other two have Grand Mastered multiple times at Perry, but mine had only the 10 proofing rounds through it.
 
Most of my friends consider me a bit crazy for the amount of time I spend making ammo so the extra time and care to use the rcbs is no big deal for me. The whole reloading process is therapy for me. I deal with idiots 7 days a week from May till October so it's the slow methodical things that keep me sane.

Sounds like an interesting piece you have. I would like to see that some time. I love things with history.
 
I'll post photos of the rifle disassembled tomorrow. I have to find the photos. I think Dad stored them out on the armoury.

Thanks again!

Latigo
 
I found this on the forum where we first discussed this rifle. Almost forgot about it.
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This is a one of three Garands built by Don McCoy in this specific manner. The 190gr projectile is specified, and now I should be explaining what we found on our range today.
The rifle doubled. Twice. The barrel has been hBN sealed and we're shooting 175SMKs, impact coated. Chrono shows a nominal 2,475. There's no doubt that the gas port is set to acommodate the 190s without damaging the op-rod.
This is the rifle.

IMG_1364.jpg


IMG_1393.jpg


IMG_1369.jpg


This was the original explanation.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Noted Garand competition builder and accuracy specialist Don McCoy of Santee, CA, built this M1 for me in 2001. It is built on a selected Springfield receiver (1943 manufacture date), and has an Obermeyer 5R barrel with 1:10 twist. It is designed to shoot 190-grain bullets with exceptional accuracy out to 1000 yards.

This rifle has numerous custom accuracy features, including a lugged receiver, glass bedding with additional custom fabricated steel plate fittings that tie the receiver into the bedding with 3 bolts, ½-minute rear sight, reaming to ensure barrel & gas cylinder clearance as well as machining the end of the gas cylinder for stock clearance, and many more machined accuracy refinements. The forward hand grip is also glass bedded with attention taken to ensure complete clearance for the op-rod. The heavy stock is English walnut with a Fullerplast finish as only McCoy can do.

The 2-stage trigger is extraordinarily smooth and makes the rifle a joy to shoot. The rifle has approximately 40 rounds through it. It was function-fired by McCoy and later broken-in by myself using Tetra Gun followed by a dry patch every round for the first 10 rounds, every other for the next 10, and then 5 + 5 for the final 10 rounds. After the last 5 rounds it was immediately cleaned with Tetra Gun, dried, and a patch with Militec-1 lubricant was run down the bore while it was still hot. After returning from the range, the bore was cleaned with Sweets 7.62, followed by Tetra Gun. Lastly a patch of Militec-1 lubricant was run down the barrel. All cleaning & lubrication/protection was run from the breech to the muzzle.

From here on out, the rifle will clean up easily with either Tetra Gun or Kroil, followed by the Militec-1 for conditioning and as a protectant/preservative. An application of Sweets 7.62 every 200 rounds or so will help prevent copper build up. The purchaser will get the fired brass from the break-in session.

This rifle is one of only three like it that McCoy has built in his long career building match Garands. His clients include some of the top High Power competitors and collectors in the country. I have a McCoy M1 in .308 with an Obermeyer 5R 1:11 barrel, which I fired in many High Power matches with great success.

A fine, accurate, and unique rifle from one of the outstanding M1 accuracy specialists at the peak of his career.

I also have video of McCoy in his shop going over the features of this rifle which I'm sending with the rifle.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

By "one of three" I didn't know what he meant until the video on the rifle arrived. It was made by McCoy explaining the exact constrution of this rifle by serial number. Beside every aspect of the rifle being bedded, its triple pillar bedded. I'll post another picture of those pillars as soon as I get my sister in town to forward them our here.

So, should I be using 190's exclusively or can I simply boost the charge to obtain the right pressures?
---------------------------------------------------------------------

This was a question by a Garand competition shooter.
"The next question I have is how do you know the McCoy rifle you have was built to fire only 190 gr. bullets."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Because McCoy made a point of it in the DVD he made for this rifle.

This is the bedding. Note the three welded pillars and the corresponding bedded receivers in the stock.

M12.jpg


M14.jpg


M13.jpg


M19.jpg


It seems that Mr. McCoy and I will be speaking today. He feels there may be a timing problem. He's very ill now and I won't be taking much of his time. With his advice I intend to solve it here. I posted this in case you gents thought of something I've missed. I was hoping to not have to bother him at all if it appeared to be something obvious to you. I suspect pressures too low may be involved, but I've never dealt with a M1 that was a custom build.

Thanks for any advice.

BTW........ Close examination of the trigger group shows a positive lock up and plenty of hammer/sear contact before release. The trigger seems to be a 4.5 pull.

M111.jpg


Makers Medallion.

IMG_1978.jpg


Stage one.

IMG_1981.jpg


Stage two.

IMG_1982.jpg


Any ideas at all? Dumb in the first place to try a 175 in lieu of a 190? Any ideas before we bother Mr. McCoy?

Latigo
 
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Apr 3 11 9:49 AM
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Latigo,

Mac adjusts his triggers to the absolute minimum sear engagement, with most of the weight in the first stage. I was sure that mine would double, but it doesn't. It has been very, very dependable. But mine is single lugged only at the back. (I went and dug my triple lugged rifle out of the safe a while back ... it was built be Clint Fowler, and the forward lugs are slightly different and located more forward).

These rifles are meant to be fired with the buttplate HARD into your shoulder, even in offhand where you can't use the sling. If you use a "soft" hold as in benchrest shooting, you are probably bump-firing it. The combination of the way the rifle recoils, and the trigger technique ("milking the trigger") will make it double, or even simulate full auto fire. I can do this on purpose, it gets folks attention with an M1A and ten rounds in the magazine. (if you are using your mechanical rest, you may get the same efect)

I would fire it in a good solid prone postition with a tight sling. If you want the security of a rest for ammo testing, put a sandbag under your gloved hand. If it still doubles, do the same with M72-equivalent 173 or 175 grain loads. If it still doubles, it needs some attention. The Easy Button would be a new hammer tuned for a bit more sear engagement. If all this doesn't work, then you need to talk the The Master himself. The "unkown" to me is how Mac's forward lug system may effect the way the rifle flexes under recoil forces, and how that may effect the minimum tolerable sear engagement.

Hope this helps ...

Resp'y,
Bob S.

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I think it does help. I was prone with the rifle bagged fore and aft. My usual way to pull the trigger on any rifle is to pull with folllow through and hold the trigger to the rear before making a conscious release............................. but considering his trigger setup, now I'm not so sure.
After doubling, I extracted the next chambered round and we noticed the primer was dimpled. I also think I remember having pulled the trigger after doubling and there was no release, just as if the hammer had not reset at all. I cycled the bolt and it fired the next chambered round ok.

Ok, so the load was with a FLS case, TTL less than manual length, primer seated just below flush, 175gr SMK seated 10 thous off the lands, 45.5gr of 4895 and a MV of 2540. I had a guy tell me about the US Army Manual data book listing the 173gr with 50gr of 4895. It sounded way wrong so I googled it and found there had been an error in TM 43-0001-27 saying that 50gr of 4895 was a match load with the 173gr projectile. I'm thinking now that I should have been at 46.5gr of 4895 anyway to make things work with the right MV and pressures. With a gas port tuned specifically for a 190, can chamber pressures that are too low cause any of this?
And the soft hold sure could have happened. I was excited about the whole thing anyway.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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I was able to speak with Mr. McCoy last evening, probably for the last time. His protoge is taking over everything very soon now and I don't want to bother him again. At age 92 he doesn't need to be answering questions from someone into his first Garand. He was good enough to explain the exact nature of the rifle to me.

He said there is not a mechanical way for that rifle to double. It was all me. His exact words were, "Chamber each round with your fingers. Don't use one of those single round setups. Let the bolt close narurally. Breathe on that trigger, don't just pull it. Do all that and you'll be shooting right along with the best of them, but only if you're capable. The rifle already is. It was designed for 190s, so use 190s. The load we gave you is for military brass. Use it."

The gent taking over all of it is Mark Hendricks. He's been studying under Mr. McCoy for a long time and it now ready to keep the shop running with the same quality Garands. He's avaliable to me anytime I want to call, so I'm sure I'll have more questions later. We loaded 190 SMKs with Mr. McCoy's load data last night and we got load data from Mark for 175 SMKs as well.
I'll post targets after we take it all out to our range saturday or sunday. Its still pretty cold here so we'll be shooting from our ShootShed at the 100 yard mark. Its going to be a fun summer.

One thing I forgot. His load data is hot! A few of them with amounts over book maximums by a full grain, and one that's two grains over.



Latigo

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. McCoy passed away just 5 days after our last communication.
Everything has now been worked out perfectly with this rifle since then, and it does perform exactly as he said it would, but we've now decided to take it down this path "just to see" if it changes anything at all.

Thanks
Latigo St,Marie

www.swissproductsllc.com
 
Mark just called me and we talked about the trigger. He said he can do it one of two ways if you are interested. You can send him just the trigger group and he will make it into a semi-auto, or you can send him the rifle and he can make a new semi-auto trigger for it.

Mac also mentioned (which I had forgotten) that Joe Sopko won the Long Range Match at Camp Perry in 2007 in the Service Rifle class with one of the other two McCoy M1 Long Range rifles like yours. The Army promptly got the NRA to classify the AR10 as a service rifle and has shot them in the long range matches since.

Let me know if either of these two options interest you and we can go from there. Personally, I would not alter the original single shot trigger group as it is one of the things that really makes this rifle unique. I wish I had known about this before I put it up for sale, but as I told you on the phone, it never occurred to me and if Mac had mentioned it, to this day I cannot recall; and I'm usually pretty good in remembering details like that. If anything, I think it adds to the uniqueness and value of the rifle.

Regards,

Mike

Thank you so much for the information Mr.***. And according to Mr. McCoy, it was the one of three brother of mine. I feel pretty fortunate to have this one. Needless to say I'm leaving it as it is.Thanks Again, and I'll email the results of this weekend's load data tests.
Latigo



FWIW, the M72 match load used the same 50gr 4895 charge.

Actually not. That's a cut and paste error in military TM 43-0001-27. Note that
the same identical chamber pressure was also copied over, which is a physical
impossibility with the same charge under the heavier 173 grain bullet. The last
loads of M2, for example were actually rolled with a ball powder, which I
learned by pulling LC down. Probably WC852. The last M72 ammo loaded was ordered
loaded by the DCM and was charged with 46.5 grains of IMR4895. I heard that at
Camp Perry originally, but, again, have verified it by pulling down M72 for
myself.

The most comprehensive list of match loads I am aware of is the John Clark
article in Handloader #114, March-April 1985. That back issue is available for
purchase from Wolfe Publishing http://www.riflemagazine.com/backissues/index.cfm?type=0
The main thing that's changed since then is that Winchester revised their case
design to use a semi-balloon head, so the brass is now lighter and the loads
listed for Winchester in that article will be off.

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That's it, gents. We spent the day reloading the various data given us, but needless to say we'll be working primarily with the data Mr. McCoy designed the rifle for. The 190 SMK.
I'll post targets when we have them. Weather is turning sour on us. Thanks for all of your input, Bart B.



Did I mention that Don McCoy was standing on a runway at the Naval Air Facility on Ford Island in Pearl Harbor the morning of Dec. 7, 1941, when the Japanese planes flew over dropping bombs?


I hadn't heard that Bart, but before all of this I knew who General Guisan was, but not Mr. McCoy.

I really should replace a few of the photos with new ones, but anyway......
So we did set up and shoot the first of 4 load combos last sunday. My very first M1 Garand group with 4895 and 190 SMKs measured 1.1" with open sights at 110 yards with the front end bagged. I have to admit that I've never in my life shot a M1 Garand or those sights, so I'm betting it'll get better as I learn correct shooting methodology. Its sure not like a k31 at all.

From our machine rest its all holes touching, and just under .5". I chambered them one at a time by hand and let the bolt close naturally. Wind was 5 surging to 12 on the anamometer in the house. Our range streamer was almost a steady 45 degrees. This is a wayyyy cool rifle. I just need to get my own shooting to the the point of actually deserving it.

The weather drove us off the range. We got hit with a lollapalooza of a storm with the winds going up to 45 and the rain driving almost horizontal with the ground.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's about all I have, Gents

Thanks for your time.

Latigo
 
Geno C said:
If you're careful the rcbs unit can give accurate and repeatable readings. It does take a bit of finesse though.

The RCBS is a very versatile tool but it does require a lot of finesse. The main issue I have is that there are too many features included and as a result the work area is very crowded.

Does one need an all-in-one tool to measure case neck thickness, runout, case length, and case wall thickness? By incorporating all these features it's good for someone who only needs to measure a few cases now and then but too frustrating for those that want quick, accurate, measurements in each of the listed operations and doesn't want to take a ton of time for "finesse".

I have one and only use it for checking case neck runout after sizing. The rest of the operations are done with other dedicated tools.

For the totally budget minded it's OK. There are better.
 
Thank you........... and I agree. We'll go with a simple dedicated Digital setup.
Thanks again, Gents. I'm excited to finally get this rifle off the ground and shooting.

Latigo
 
Measuring in .0001 or even to .000050 (50 millionths) is as much a matter of technique as the piece of equipment.

The little table mounted tools will probably not give you the results of a micromenter or a .0001 or .00005 indicator mounted into a micrometer or C frame.

You either need no fingers involved or a very fine touch. The little table top tools require fingers but probably will not give you a fine touch.
I use a Mitutoyo multi anvil mike and I can change the anvil to a pin that is a close fit in the case neck which give me a better feel.
 
Hi, Latigo,

Beautiful rifles! I never saw a McCoy rifle that wasn't a work of art.

I could add some history on the McCoy Navy Mk2 Garand. The triple-lug design is unique, but the rifle I used in 2007 was a single-lugged McCoy Navy Mk2 (308 Win) built in 2003.
It wasn't all that special. That rifle is on it's third barrel and all I shoot are 185 and 190 grain bullets at long range. It was common for Navy shooters to shoot long range and at 600 yards with 190s with the same rifle they used for closer ranges.
I remember asking Mac if I should be worried about shooting heavy bullets and he used to tell me, "I built it. You shoot it." And, it shoots well. :)

Joe Sopko
 
Look at the Mitutoya digital micrometer on E-bay. I have the non-digital version about $60. Digital $139.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-1-Digital-Tube-Micrometer-IP54-00005-NEW-FB4-/151362809608
 
Webster.......... bought it day before yesterday! We must be on the same wave length. ;D
Joe, I recognize your name. Are you not a friend or acquaintance of this gent?
He proofed our first Long Range 1,000 yard Diopter prototype for us ay Quantico, and in appreciation, my Dad presented him with Type PS Diopter #1 off the production line. I made a presentation box for him on the CNC









This was a huge deal for us because almost 4 years ago now it was accepted by the Swiss SSV as being sanctioned for all Swiss international competition.

I'll post a report on how we do with the Mitutoyo, and thanks for the help, gents!

Latigo
 

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