Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Bart
I only shoot at 100 and 200 yards, but I do not compete except with myself. I just want to produce the best groups I can with the equipment I have.
NECK TENSION
- Thread starter Nick Caprinolo
- Start date
I only shoot at 100 and 200 yards, but I do not compete except with myself. I just want to produce the best groups I can with the equipment I have.
Ccrider
Gold $$ Contributor
.002 under a loaded round
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Or .001 or .003 according to what shoots best. Could be .004!
True every rifle is different .002 works in mine
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
Its definitely the most common and the best place to start
foxguy
Gold $$ Contributor
Just a question, when load testing where does neck tension fall in the testing process.
1.Powder load testing
2. Seating testing
3.Primer testing
4. Neck Tension testing
I'm relatively new to this tweaking thing, currently using Powder Load testing first and then Seating Depth test trying to tweak loads.
Thanks in advance
Guys,
I’m not ignoring you! Im at a match this weekend so as soon as I get back home I’ll tell you what I think!
Dusty Stevens
Shiner
You got it
If you read what Vergil King did to get consistent neck tension (Secrets of the Houston Warehouse) you'll get an idea of what lengths a person can go to in order to put bullets into the same hole at 100 yds.
Most of us don't have the equipment and ability to do what Vergil did, so desired degree of consistency is what guides our paths. He didn't size his brass, just shot it, brushed the necks before loading because he used a very tight neck chamber and made use of the spring back nature of the brass. He also carefully turned the inside and outside of his brass, then polished the inside with fine sandpaper until his hand seated bullets all felt the same. If he could feel the gas check ring seat into the groove in the neck, he knew it would shoot.
Those were the extremes he went to in order to put 5 bullets into a group that measured .025 consistently.
Theoretically neck tension effects gas pressure at bullet release, and therefore charge burn rate, and thence barrel timing at bullet exit.
Like you, I don't shoot competitively, but I do have a naturally inquisitive mind. And this chit is wonderfully complex!
Most of us don't have the equipment and ability to do what Vergil did, so desired degree of consistency is what guides our paths. He didn't size his brass, just shot it, brushed the necks before loading because he used a very tight neck chamber and made use of the spring back nature of the brass. He also carefully turned the inside and outside of his brass, then polished the inside with fine sandpaper until his hand seated bullets all felt the same. If he could feel the gas check ring seat into the groove in the neck, he knew it would shoot.
Those were the extremes he went to in order to put 5 bullets into a group that measured .025 consistently.
Theoretically neck tension effects gas pressure at bullet release, and therefore charge burn rate, and thence barrel timing at bullet exit.
Like you, I don't shoot competitively, but I do have a naturally inquisitive mind. And this chit is wonderfully complex!
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Joe
Yes, you did send this to me and I did watch it. Being the old fart I am, I need to watch things like this several times before it finally sinks in. Thanks again for this. I will download it so that I have it to watch when I need to refresh my memory.
Nick
Nick
The reason I asked what you are shooting is because what is important for short vs long range differs in some areas.
As I go back and look at your questions, you are really focused on neck tension! For short range neck tension is Way Way WAY down the list! Really what you’re looking for is to be able to hold the bullet in place while having somewhat consistent pressure while seating. I normally use a button that’s .004 smaller then my loaded round.
In reloading I consider seating depth as the most critical factor (Long or Short). More then powder charge! More then neck tension! A bad seating depth will not shoot no matter what powder charge or neck tension you try! While a good seating depth will widen your tune!
When I leave for a match I want my seating depth nailed down. I will figure out what the powder charge needs to be when I arrive.
Contrary to popular long range belief! Long range guns just like short range drift in and out of tune durning the day. So don’t look for the one perfect load that shoots all the time, because it doesn’t exit. Loading for a short range rifle (one that’s really in tune) is more like trying to hit a moving target. Normally on a given summer day I’ll have to change my load 3 times to keep it Shooting from morning to late afternoon. This way you walk out in the morning and your gun shoots great. Take the same load out at 1 o’clock and the gun sprays! Very rarely The tune stays put for an entire day.
You mentioned weighting bullets. This is hard for new guys to get but separating “Custom” bullets by weight is a waste of time. I can take a 68 gr Bullet and a 66 gr bullet made from the same die with and they will shoot in a hole at 100 & 200 yards! Try it I think it will surprise you. I know I didn’t believe it until I did it several times.
Hope this helps
Bart
Al Lu
Gold $$ Contributor
Bart thank you for sharing of your expertise! Is there a method that you recommend to "When I leave for a match I want my seating depth nailed down" ?
From my reading here, it seems that .020 off is the number most seen? How much (amount) should I be moving up and down and what would you consider a good start point start point? Thanks.
From my reading here, it seems that .020 off is the number most seen? How much (amount) should I be moving up and down and what would you consider a good start point start point? Thanks.
Nick Caprinolo
Gold $$ Contributor
Bart
As usual your insight is clear and to the point. For my 6 PPC, I usually seat so that when chambering, the bullet is pushed to its final length when the bolt is engaged. This seats it into the lands, but not real tight. For me, the PPC is my first foray into extreme accuracy. All of my other guns have been of the shelf rifles many of which I was satisfied with if I averaged 1 minute of angle.
In loading for accuracy, I am trying to gain insight of the things that work and eliminate the things that do not matter.
In one of my PMs to you, I asked about powder charges and you advised me that I should load to velocity and use what ever amount of powder would get me the range you suggested. I gave that some thought and reasoned that neck tension might effect velocity. Am I wrong?
Thing about this site is that it is full of great advice from great folks who have proven their ability and do not have their nose stuck up in the air but are willing to share their expertise to those who might some day face them on the firing line and try to out shoot them. That won't be me but it very well might be someone else who reads your posts. I recently acquired several thousand of your bullets and am looking forward to shooting them.
Improvement comes in small steps. every time I ask for advice, I try to put it to use. Most times it helps. If ever someone would ask me what the best way to improve their shooting, I would offer these two points.
Do not be afraid to ask for help. At least try what folks offer as a solution to your question.
Never buy less than the best. You save money in the long run. I've heard people say that you can't buy excellence. I don't adhere to that. I recently purchased a Seb Rest and the first time I used it I was astonished at the improvement I attained. I think I have bought ever rest available prior to this purchase. If you can't afford it, wait till you can.
So thanks again for all the help you have given me and the thousands of others who see your posts. Folks like you are the real Hero's in this game.
Nick
Al Lu,
I use my version of the the Boyer method! With a 6PPC AND V133 I start at Jam (as far into the rifling as possible). I use targets that have bullseyes 5 across. When I’m trying to find the proper seating depth and load I will load Say 28.7,29.0, 29.3, 29.6 29.9 (3 each) at Jam! Then from the lowest load to the highest I’ll shoot 3 shot groups, watching wind flags and calling my shots. Next I’ll run the same loads only seated .003 deeper! Then repeat at .006, 009, and .012 and so on!
If your gun will shoot it will find a tune within that powder range. What you’re looking for is not necessarily the smallest group. What you want to find a seating depth that has say three good groups in a row. Normally a great group with a decent one before and after.
This is the best way I’ve found to find the correct seating depth while determining how wide of a load window the barrel has.
Usually you will find a great seating depth between jam and .012 back!
These loads are for a custom Benchrest rifle not for factory guns.
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Thanks Nick you are very kind!
Owning, using and understanding wind flags will cover a multitude of loading sins. If you can't read wind all that other stuff is virtually meaningless. Fortunately, wind skills are attainable. It just takes practice. I don't think most people are able to get really good unless they compete.
YMMV,
Rick
YMMV,
Rick
Tim Singleton
Gold $$ Contributor
Listen to the man!
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