Neck Tension Testing

[trailrider121]

I found load for my current setup with really low (7) ES/SD numbers; however, the groups at 340 yards were okay 2"-3" groups. I tried different seating depths with very little results. I've never really messed around with testing different neck testing with a bushing die. My current neck tension is .003", and plan to test different tension. My dilemma is I don't have access right now with a range farther than 100 yards. Will I see a benefit testing at 100 yards using a chronograph? Don't want to waste components.

 

[artbosco]

Forget the chronograph. Purchase a good set of wind flags and Watch the Target as you change bushings [.001", .002', .003", and .004" under your loaded rounds OD] for your load. Shoot your groups [at least 8 three-shot groups ... 10 five-shot groups is better] with each bushing. Tight cloverleaf groups at some point should turn into one hole groups. Don't forget to try different seating depths too once you've found the best tension for your barrel, powder, brass, primer and bullet combination's load.

 

[CatShooter]

I found load for my current setup with really low (7) ES/SD numbers; however, the groups at 340 yards were okay 2"-3" groups. I tried different seating depths with very little results. I've never really messed around with testing different neck testing with a bushing die. My current neck tension is .003", and plan to test different tension. My dilemma is I don't have access right now with a range farther than 100 yards. Will I see a benefit testing at 100 yards using a chronograph? Don't want to waste components.

I'll give you a different thought:

DON'T forget the chronograph, unless your intended shooting is short range - if you get small groups at 100 yards, with an ES of 60, and then start shooting at long range, you will get oval groups that run 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock. And the longer the range, the worse the groups.

And DO use the wind flags ONLY to tell you when there is a total lull in the wind - DON'T use them to try to compensate for wind - you are testing ammunition, not your ability to read and compensate for wind. You don't need to buy wind flags for this - get strips of thin plastic and hang them on anything.

If you have any choices on when you shoot, pick overcast days (no mirage) with a slight drizzle (no wind)... and you will also have the range to yourself.

 

[spclark]

Catshooter's got my vote here. You have to take advantage of what tools you have at hand (chrono, conditions, ranges) then tailor adding what you can (wind tell-tales, seating depth & charge weighing at the range if at all possible) to get the most information out of each range session's efforts.

I've done load testing under high wind conditions & even though it was at 600 yards (300 more typical but 100 or 200 when that's all that conditions will permit; heck even 50 tells me something when fog makes me struggle to see a 3/4" paster aiming point thru a scope) the chrono numbers told me I was good with a range of loads when the vertical dispersion for them on paper was 1-1/2". Yes five shots could be spread over 6 or 7" horizontally but that can be factored out. A load in the middle of that range has served me well four six years now even out to 1,200 yards on a calmish, muggy June afternoon.

 

[trailrider121]

Good info guys, and I will use those wind flags while testing.

 

[jimbires]

you can buy flagging tape at a hardware or true value store .

http://www.identi-tape.com/flagging.html

 

[CatShooter]

you can buy flagging tape at a hardware or true value store .

http://www.identi-tape.com/flagging.html

That's all you need - you don't need a spinning Daisy Wheel wind vane....

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

And DO use the wind flags ONLY to tell you when there is a total lull in the wind - DON'T use them to try to compensate for wind - you are testing ammunition, not your ability to read and compensate for wind.

This isn't the best way to use wind flags successfully. On a day with wind, a "lull" means that a pickup or a reverse is about to happen. Bad juju to shoot the "calm" -- it's never as calm as it looks.

Use the flags to shoot in a steady, readable condition, and your groups will be smaller than shooting when the flags are hanging, unless its one of those (very rare) days without any wind.

If you're new to using wind flags, start by shooting when the flags are all pointed in the same direction, and you will soon learn to make sense of the intensity changes as well. Angle changes are the hardest (for me) to read.

This all works a lot better if you have a really accurate rifle system, so that every shot tells you something. If you have a 0.5MOA rifle it's hard to tell whether a 0.2MOA shot displacement is the rifle or the conditions.

Tony Boyer and Mike Ratigan have written books that are the most helpful I've seen for learning to read conditions. But anyone will tell you that you can't really learn just by reading books.

 

[CatShooter]

Toby.... there is a world of difference between testing loads for groups, and shooting groups in wind.

He is not testing his ability to read and correct for wind - he is trying to lock down a "best load".

If he is load testing and also compensating for wind, and the group is "so-so".... is it the load or his wind reading abilities.

If he keeps compensating and holding off, he will never know.

Never try to develop loads on windy days, it is a waste of time.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Never try to develop loads on windy days, it is a waste of time.

Not if you know what you're doing, and have some flags out.

 

[22BRGUY]

And DO use the wind flags ONLY to tell you when there is a total lull in the wind - DON'T use them to try to compensate for wind - you are testing ammunition, not your ability to read and compensate for wind.

This isn't the best way to use wind flags successfully. On a day with wind, a "lull" means that a pickup or a reverse is about to happen. Bad juju to shoot the "calm" -- it's never as calm as it looks.

Use the flags to shoot in a steady, readable condition, and your groups will be smaller than shooting when the flags are hanging, unless its one of those (very rare) days without any wind.

If you're new to using wind flags, start by shooting when the flags are all pointed in the same direction, and you will soon learn to make sense of the intensity changes as well. Angle changes are the hardest (for me) to read.

This all works a lot better if you have a really accurate rifle system, so that every shot tells you something. If you have a 0.5MOA rifle it's hard to tell whether a 0.2MOA shot displacement is the rifle or the conditions.

Tony Boyer and Mike Ratigan have written books that are the most helpful I've seen for learning to read conditions. But anyone will tell you that you can't really learn just by reading books.

+ MANY ON THIS

I'm not anywhere near as good as many of the shooters on this site, but in my "limited" experience, this is right on as far as reading the flags. I don't know if you have Menards near you, but they stock 10 foot, I think steel, poles or rather electric conduit pipes, at cheap prices. I got some thick aluminum wire and made "L" shaped pieces with each leg of the "L" about 20 inches long. At the end of one of the legs I bent a circle to hold the plastic strips and stuck the other leg into the end of the pipe after I ponded the pipe down in the ground about 2 feet vertically. They're cheap and work well enough.
Best Wishes

 

[Catfish]

I agree with the Outdoorsman, forget the crono. I never check the velocity, ES or SD until I have found the most accurate load. Who cares what they are with a load you will not shoot. I use the velocity to figure drop charts for long range field shooting and the ES figure in only as the limiting factor on the effective range. Flag are good only if you can read them and in a gusty breeze they are not that much help as the wind speed and or direction changes just as you touch off the round. Testing is best done on a relatively calm day with any breeze being steady.

 

[jonbearman]

Nice shooting toby. What caliber were you using , not to hijack but is it a 30 br?

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Nice shooting toby. What caliber were you using , not to hijack but is it a 30 br?

Yes, a 30BR I bought from Al Nyhus. Those are all 3-shot groups in a 4-10 o'clock light, steady condition. H4198 (charge weights shown on the target), 115gr Bergers, Fed 205M, 0.324 bushing on a loaded round diameter of 0.3272 (0.330 neck). The jam length is 1.737 on the Wilson seater stem, so you can see that it likes to be 0.010-0.015 off the jam.

 

[CatShooter]

Never try to develop loads on windy days, it is a waste of time.

Not if you know what you're doing, and have some flags out.

Toby...

"Not if you know what you're doing, and have some flags out." The problem is... he does NOT know what he is doing, which is why he asked.

Be reasonable - the poster is NOT a seasoned shooter with a rifle that shoots in the 1's (as in 0.1" +/-)...

... he is NOT a seasoned shooter and he is shooting a rifle that (so far) is shooting in the 1's as in ONE MOA... and you want to show him targets and imply that he can do that if he buys some flags and if he reads some books written by benchrest shooters???

If this is the best this site has to offer for advice, then he is lost.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

... and you want to show him targets and imply that he can do that if he buys some flags and if he reads some books written by benchrest shooters???

Not at all. But if he uses flags and shoots the (apparent) calm he will do worse than if he shoots in a steady condition, regardless of his rifle or skill level.

If this is the best this site has to offer for advice, then he is lost.

Not at all. He's gotten good advice from me, with some data to back it up. And he will get the same advice from HOF BR shooters. Maybe there's something to it.

If he just USES flags he'll be ahead of 99% of the "load developers" out there, regardless. And he can, of course, try both the calm and the light steady condition for himself. I already know how that experiment comes out.

 

[seymour fish]

Trail, 2-3" groups at 300 plus, but what Shape? if flat, and you have no flags to determine any wind change, you could already be sitting on the holy grail and not know it. Your ES is fine, but how wide is your node , and what is the average ES across your node? that will tell you something, with limited expenditure. You have some excellent advice here from Toby, and some "other" advice. Hey Cat, There is mirage during an overcast condition, if you look for it, sometimes extreme. I'm waiting for an overcast, zero mirage, slight drizzle--but not enough to get my panties wet, not enough to weight my surveyors tape down, cant feel any wind on my face, smoke fails to drift or even move---just hangs around my head creating a fog. Should I shoot now, can I trust it, how long do you think it will last ??? Been waiting here all day, range about to close, do I dare let one off ??? !!! Mere mortal, don't have the patience that your listed Vampiric age of 900 years must bring. HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!! Seymour

 

[CatShooter]

Trail, 2-3" groups at 300 plus, but what Shape? if flat, and you have no flags to determine any wind change, you could already be sitting on the holy grail and not know it. Your ES is fine, but how wide is your node , and what is the average ES across your node? that will tell you something, with limited expenditure. You have some excellent advice here from Toby, and some "other" advice. Hey Cat, There is mirage during an overcast condition, if you look for it, sometimes extreme. I'm waiting for an overcast, zero mirage, slight drizzle--but not enough to get my panties wet, not enough to weight my surveyors tape down, cant feel any wind on my face, smoke fails to drift or even move---just hangs around my head creating a fog. Should I shoot now, can I trust it, how long do you think it will last ??? Been waiting here all day, range about to close, do I dare let one off ??? !!! Mere mortal, don't have the patience that your listed Vampiric age of 900 years must bring. HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!! Seymour

Fish... I know mirage when it is there...

... but thank you - you have convinced me that my club's range is the finest range, with the finest shooting conditions, east of the Mississippi... so I will quickly whip them off a renewal check for the coming year, before I forget.

 

[seymour fish]

cat, pay the money rite quick, before the word gets out. start up a guaranteed zero-condition match. should catch on. Seymour

 

[UltraBR30]

Myself I want wind and do not like calm, and do not like or shoot a pause. 3 flags pointing in near the same direction revealing near equal wind speeds, and now you can develop a truly accurate load, that will shoot in most any condition there after (for hunting, plinking, or competition).
It does not take long at all to learn how to shoot over wind flags. Read tobybradshaw's very good reply on how to start out with them. Won't be long and you'll have your own technique and you will be able to test in almost any condition and any given day.
Can't help but wonder if some have even shot over flags, and doubt they have, that fail to understand there significance and how well they work. If you want the most from your rifle, wind flags will greatly help you get it.
Philip