neck sizing

[pills]

I have read a couple articles/post suggesting that you remove the neck sizing button on the decapping rod. They said that this will throw off your necks. Is this button not neaded at all? should it be replaced with a mandral style? I use both fl dies as well as Lee neck dies so I want to make sure that I can remove these from both types of die.

 

[Killshot]

It is recommended to remove the expander ball from the decapping rod only on Bushing Dies, such as those from Redding.

The Lee dies need that expander ball to be run through, their dies size the brass way down then the ball expands it to the size needed to hold a bullet with some modicum of neck tension.

Bushing dies are thought to better control neck tension by being able to adjust to your specific caseneck thickness and chamber dimensions.

 

[pills]

got it. thanks

 

[BoydAllen]

Fellows,
To my knowledge, the only neck dies that Lee makes (Collet dies)do not have conventional expanding balls, they have a mandrel that MUST be used for the die to function properly. These mandrels can be ordered in different sizes to for different neck tensions. Also, if you are using a bushing type die for a rifle with a factory chamber, the results may actually be inferior to those obtained with a Collet die. This is because the bushings, are part of a system that originally was devised for match chambers that do not allow as much neck expansion as factory chambers. The larger difference between fired (form a factory chamber and sized brass may require that two, progressively smaller bushings be used if the best results are to be obtained. Collet dies work differently, and this situation does not pose a problem.

As far as taking the expander out of bushing dies goes, if the necks are not turned, not using an expander results in the shapes inside diameters of necks reflecting the necks' irregularities, making them less round and uniform in diameter than if the expander had been used in conjunction with a bushing sized so that only a slight (less than .002) expansion is done by the ball. At this level of expansion case straightness is unaffected.

 

[Jayman_10x]

Guy's - just to clarify we are talking about strictly neck sizing, correct? Because it is recommended to remove the expander ball when doing initial full-length re-sizing, then replacing the ball/rod assembly and just bumping the neck to open it up the second go-around.

Also, I have a Redding Neck Bushing Competition die set and have never removed the decapping rod. And I get virtually zero case runout. Or are you talking about the Type-S Bushing Dies? Still some missing clarification here, I believe.

Jason

 

[BoydAllen]

Redding has two types of bushing type neck dies, the competition die (the one with the micrometer), that has a decapping rod that has a retainer for the decapping pin that is not an expander, and the S type neck die that has both a decapping pin retainer, and an expander ball, so that the user has a choice as to which he will use.

There is a lot of misinformation out there, including articles, about how to use dies, and what the sources of runout are. On a typical, one piece neck or FL die, the inside diameter of the part that sizes the neck is too small for unturned necks. This results in the expander ball having to do so much expanding, as the case comes out of the die, that excessive pull on the case is created. This causes the shoulder of the case to be pulled slightly out of shape, and since the brass is not totally even as to thickness and hardness it does so unevenly...which cocks the neck relative to the case body. Some shooters have made the mistake of removing or turning down the expander balls in these situations, and although the brass will measure much straighter after sizing, there is still the matter of seating a bullet in a case that has had its neck reduced too much. Bullets make poor expanders, and excessive neck tension is not desirable. On the other hand, if unturned necks are used in a bushing die, the size of the bushing may be selected so that the expander only does a small amount of work, so that its passage throught the neck is barely felt at the press handle. In this case, there is not enough pull on the case to cock the neck, so the case remains straight, and in fact, the uniformity of the inside diameters of the unturned necks, and their roundness will be improved, making bullet pull more uniform.

On the other hand, if necks are fully turned, and bushing dies are used, the expander ball may be omitted, as long as the correct bushing size is used. For one piece dies, this would depend on the match between the chamber, case neck thickness, and the desired neck tension. In any case, as long as the pull on the neck is kept to a low level, the use of an expander ball will do no harm, except that it will limit the neck tension to a lower amount than is desired in some cases.

 

[4xforfun]

Guy's - just to clarify we are talking about strictly neck sizing, correct? Because it is recommended to remove the expander ball when doing initial full-length re-sizing, then replacing the ball/rod assembly and just bumping the neck to open it up the second go-around.

Also, I have a Redding Neck Bushing Competition die set and have never removed the decapping rod. And I get virtually zero case runout. Or are you talking about the Type-S Bushing Dies? Still some missing clarification here, I believe.

Jason

Both my FL dies and neck dies in ALL of the calibers I shoot are Bushing style dies and have the expander button removed. If you use the proper bushing the expander is not needed. The "propper" bushing is gereraly .002- .004 SMALLER than your loaded round measurmants. Every gun is different, and finding propper neck tension is part of the load development process.

Again....If you have a bushing die, weather it is a neck or FL, you should not use the expander button.

Tod

 

[BoydAllen]

Tod,

This is what Redding has to say, on their web site, about this subject.

"The above methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter."

Boyd

 

[jo191145]

Redding may be correct Boyd. No arguement here.
What that Redding statement fails to say is if your brass varies by more than .002" your gonna have a devil of a time getting decent accuracy anyway

If anyone thinks brass with those variations behave badly in a sizing die just imagine what Bananna shapes it takes on while releasing your bullet

 

[BoydAllen]

I have used expanders with necks that were just partly cleaned up, and measured the results on a concentricity gauge. The bushings were selected just as Redding suggested, and the results were excellent. jo191145, this is not for you, but I somehow feel the need to say that when I post something about reloading, it is usually from experience, and I have probably tried doing it more than one way. So many times folks simply go with what someone told them, or what they think should be true, without adequate testing. Anyone who has done as Redding suggests, even if their brass is not that bad, knows that with so little expanding taking place, that concentricity is not harmed.

 

[jo191145]

Boyd, You should know I have the utmost respect for you and your extensive knowledge, I do.

The point I was trying to make is loading concentric ammo on brass that has/ or had great variations in neck thickness is almost futile.
.002" variation is'nt desirable but not terrible. Jump to .003 and I find it discouraging brass. Go's on the Christmas Tree. JMO's on brass

One can turn the necks even and the rest of the case still has the flaw inside. Perhaps worse.
While it may measure concentric as loaded ammo as soon as the primer ignites and pressure begins to build that concentricity is gone.
Dependant on the amount of clearences in the chamber you can get some pretty good Bananas happening during bullet release. Can't be good.
After full pressure and extraction one may never know that case was attempting to make itself into a pretzel just seconds ago.

Of course this is really just theory and conjecture on my part. Never shared a chamber with anything that was thick on one side and thin on the other. Not even on that train ride to Montreal

 

[4xforfun]

Tod,

This is what Redding has to say, on their web site, about this subject.

"The above methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter."

Boyd

Boyd,

Yep, and that is why I used the word "generaly" and also said "every gun is different, and finding proper neck tension is part of the load development process". Also, I assumed that everyone here is far enough along to have brass fit to shoot. Of course, you know what they say about making assumtions!!! :-[

But, I still say that if you use bushing dies, weather neck or full lengh, you should trash your expander button.

 

[BoydAllen]

Evidently, opinions vary.

 

[wooger]

For what it's worth Boyd, your explanation regarding expanders and their appropriate use is the clearest I have read.

 

[BoydAllen]

Thanks

 

[bozo699]

Tod,

This is what Redding has to say, on their web site, about this subject.

"The above methods of determining bushing size require that the cases being sized have a fairly uniform neck wall thickness or have been neck turned. If the neck wall thickness varies more than 0.002", it may be necessary to use a bushing a couple of thousandths smaller than your calculations indicate, and then use a size button in the die to determine the final inside neck diameter."

Boyd

Boyd,

Yep, and that is why I used the word "generaly" and also said "every gun is different, and finding proper neck tension is part of the load development process". Also, I assumed that everyone here is far enough along to have brass fit to shoot. Of course, you know what they say about making assumtions!!! :-[

But, I still say that if you use bushing dies, weather neck or full lengh, you should trash your expander button.

I generally don't use a expander nor decapper in my dies but I have found in some cases that the use of a expander has improved the concentricity of my brass, In the reloading world I don't think any of us should have a open and closed mind on things, I daily am learning new things in the shooting world, many many of them have came from Boyd Allen, he is a wealth of knowledge and in my experience with him he has usually tried what he is preaching, I don't always do as he says but I always listen to what he has to say
Wayne.

 

[jlow]

My experience with dumping the size button when neck turning and using the bushing die is that the answer can be both yes and no.

Yes, if you turn your brass completely because you will then have a fairly consistent neck thickness and therefore consistent ID and neck tension.

No, if you skim the neck like some people like to do because doing so will give you by definition inconsistent neck thickness and when you size it with the bushing die that inconsistency will be transferred to the ID of the neck and this will result in inconsistent neck tension – big trouble.

 

[BoydAllen]

Let' say we are talking about a situation where for good reasons necks are not going to be turned. They are pretty good as is, and the game is critters at distances that are not extreme. You want to FL size for uniformity of bolt closing effort required, you don't want to bother with a two step collet and body die sizing, and you are not going to spend the money on a custom Fl die. At that point your choices are a one piece die that has a neck ID that is so small that necks need to be expanded, and the effort to pull the expander through neck will definitely degrade case straightness in a negative manner....or you could use a bushing FL die. The question then becomes expander or not. If you don't use one, the case to variations in neck thickness will mean that the hole that the bullet is to be seated into will vary in diameter, and while the outsides of the necks will be fairly round, the insides will not. On the other hand, if we choose a bushing size that lets us barely feel an expander pass through the thinnest necks, using an expander ball will tend to uniform the inside diameters, and make them rounder than they would otherwise be. If the choice is between a more perfect neck interior, or exterior, I choose interior. As I have written many times before, the good thing about hobbies is that we have some discretion in these matters. Go forth and do it as you will. ;D

 

[K22]

Let' say we are talking about a situation where for good reasons necks are not going to be turned. They are pretty good as is, and the game is critters at distances that are not extreme. You want to FL size for uniformity of bolt closing effort required, you don't want to bother with a two step collet and body die sizing, and you are not going to spend the money on a custom Fl die. At that point your choices are a one piece die that has a neck ID that is so small that necks need to be expanded, and the effort to pull the expander through neck will definitely degrade case straightness in a negative manner....or you could use a bushing FL die. The question then becomes expander or not. If you don't use one, the case to variations in neck thickness will mean that the hole that the bullet is to be seated into will vary in diameter, and while the outsides of the necks will be fairly round, the insides will not. On the other hand, if we choose a bushing size that lets us barely feel an expander pass through the thinnest necks, using an expander ball will tend to uniform the inside diameters, and make them rounder than they would otherwise be. If the choice is between a more perfect neck interior, or exterior, I choose interior. As I have written many times before, the good thing about hobbies is that we have some discretion in these matters. Go forth and do it as you will. ;D

Very clear and and concise explanation and describes my reloading process precisely. I load for several different 223 rifles used for varmint hunting from the Remington Model 7 to heavy barrel varmint rifles. My goal is 1/2 moa or thereabouts (for my varmint reloads) and I don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time at the reloading bench. I'm able to produce very acceptable reloads for my purposes using an RCBS full size die adjusted so as not to oversize brass (check with Wilson Case gage) with the expander ball in tact. Each rifle does have it's own set of cases. It works for me but then again I'm not a benchrest shooter or competitive shooter.

 

[BoydAllen]

K22,
How dare you interject reality into one of these long winded theoretical discussions.
Boyd