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neck sizing

BoydAllen said:
K22,
How dare you interject reality into one of these long winded theoretical discussions. ;)
Boyd

Of course I want the most accurate reloads I can produce and I try to be very precise in my reloading but I do want to keep it as simple as possible. Once I obtain a reasonably accurate load, I like to spend most of my time and money on the range (when I'm not hunting varmints :)), shooting from field positions (for me it's shooting off shooting sticks) to become a better marksman. For me, this has yielded a much better return than trying to squeeze that last 1/8 to 1/4 inch reduction in group size spending hours on the bench which incidently I hate shooting off the bench. But as I said, I'm a avid varmint hunter not a benchrest shooter and I do respect those guys - shooting holes in those tiny little dots really is amazing. :)


PS- You've heard the expression on TV when E.F. Hutton speaks - everyone listens. Well when BoydAllen writes something - I read it. I've been shooting, hunting and reloading for 40 years but I'm still learning - keep up to the posts.
 
K22 said:
BoydAllen said:
K22,
How dare you interject reality into one of these long winded theoretical discussions. ;)
Boyd

Of course I want the most accurate reloads I can produce and I try to be very precise in my reloading but I do want to keep it as simple as possible. Once I obtain a reasonably accurate load, I like to spend most of my time and money on the range (when I'm not hunting varmints :)), shooting from field positions (for me it's shooting off shooting sticks) to become a better marksman. For me, this has yielded a much better return than trying to squeeze that last 1/8 to 1/4 inch reduction in group size spending hours on the bench which incidently I hate shooting off the bench. But as I said, I'm a avid varmint hunter not a benchrest shooter and I do respect those guys - shooting holes in those tiny little dots really is amazing. :)


PS- You've heard the expression on TV when E.F. Hutton speaks - everyone listens. Well when BoydAllen writes something - I read it. I've been shooting, hunting and reloading for 40 years but I'm still learning - keep up to the posts.

K22, My sediments exactly but I don't like to put it in print his head is already to big ;D ;D Just kidding Boyd you are really appreciated by more of us then you know, keep the post coming.
You know Boyd,...Glen Zediker has made a lot of money selling his writings,...seriously,...you should consider it!
Wayne.
 
As stated in other posts, Forster will custom hone the internal neck diameter in their dies to your nominated dimension. This prevents the neck of the fired case from being reduced excessively then forced open again by the expander ball. I have one for my 308 Lapua brass and it works perfectly and for around an extra $10 on the price of the die this is excellent value. In my case the die neck is honed to 0.3345 for turned lapua cases.
Martin
 
Martin in Aus. said:
As stated in other posts, Forster will custom hone the internal neck diameter in their dies to your nominated dimension. ..

At present I use Redding full length dies with bushings and expander ball removed on poorly turned Remington necks for my 260 Rem. However, at the next opportunity, I plan to try the Forster custom honed necks too.

Regards JCS
 
I am going to have to read this thread again, after more coffee. But if I understand this correctly....as it applies to my situation with No Turn Necks, Lapua brass & Redding S Type bushing dies. I need to put the button back on after the first firing. It is making a lot of sense to me, that the button will make the inside of the neck uniform and transfer any variance in thickness to the outside of the neck. Where it has less influence on bullet run out. Correct?

I always follow Boyd and Bozo's guidance. Call me a suck up. ;D

Boyd's explanations here are clearer and more logical than any I have read or heard before.
 
Yes, pleased to report that I do achieve low run out with my Forster FLS die, it is reliably under 0.001.
As I mentioned earlier, the neck is honed to 0.3345 so the neck of the fired case is not reduced excessively as with a standard die. The expander ball just kisses the inside of the necks. I would add that my cases are neck turned to 0.0140 and are also usually annealed. With exactly the same die/press set up, if the cases are not annealed then run out can vary up to 3 thou. I find this with both the Forster and the Lee Collett die and attribute this to work hardening of the brass. Very rarely I will reload with non annealed necks if it's a shorter distance match and I have run out of time and have no option.

I have achieved the best results using these 2 dies - why 2 dies ? - well, using new (Lapua 308) brass, I let the cartridge shouder move forward with each firing, neck sizing after each firing with the Lee die until cartridge headspace measures 1.6335 inches at which point it's a snug fit in the chamber.

I then move to the Forster FLS die and start full length sizing with each firing from that point onwards for the remainder of the case life.

Martin
 
Happy is the man who reloadeth not, for he knoweth peace and sanity.

For those who reloadeth, get an arbor press, Wilson seating die and a KnM bullet seating force attachment for the press. Then, after heeding all advice and instructions and massaging 100 cases to perfection, you will still find that your bullets will still seat with variances in seating pressure that will sort into 2 or more groups. Shoot them as separate groups if you want the most accurate results.

Frank B.
 
Early in this post Boyd mentioned the Lee collet die. I went through this whole process under Boyd's tutelage - it took months, but in the end, the simplest and best solution for neck sizing was the Lee Collet Die - just as Boyd suggested. I like the idea of the Redding Dies and I suspect that for custom chambers they work great, but for a factory rifle it was hard to argue with the results of the Collet Die.

Off to the range...

Mike
 
All of you gentleman have considerable experience in competition. I am a GH hunter with a vary accurate modified factory rifle. I work in a metallurgy lab so I occasionally throw something in. You mention using an expander ball that has very little resistance to pulling threw the neck. When you stretch and elongate a piece of metal it first goes through an elastic range then plastic deformation. If the stretching doesn't exceed the elastic range the metal returns to it's original dimension when the load is removed. Once you stretch the metal onto the plastic range it will have a permanent dimension change (only partial spring back). I will try to find a chart that shows how much you can stretch cartridge brass before it goes into permanent plastic deformation. I am not sure what you can do with this info. All lot of the things in precision shooting are based on what you see on the target. There is a lot of guessing as to why something happens. I always wondered if pulling an expander plug through a case neck moved the shoulder forward.


An interesting article on cartridge cases.
http://technology.calumet.purdue.edu/met/higley/PDF-Yielding%20of%20Brass%20Case%20Walls%20in%20the%20Chamber.pdf
 
When I shoot my 6PPC the case neck becomes larger than it was in the loaded round, even if the neck clearance is .0015. It snaps back after the bullet is released, but not all the way. It is this springiness that makes brass work so well for cartridge cases.

It may also be instructive to look at how cases get tight from one firing that is at a pressure that is excessive. The body of the case stretches out to meet the chamber, and then they both expand. In the case of a really hot load, this expansion moves them out so much that when the pressure is removed, the stronger, thicker steel snaps back all the way, but the degree of expansion has been so great that the brass has been stretched to a new dimension that is slightly larger than the chamber, and we sit there pounding our bolt open with the heel of our hand.

If the fit of the case in the chamber is too close, before firing, the level of pressure that produces a tight bolt lift, after firing, is reduced. a friend ran into this when he switched to Lapua brass for his 6BR. The original chamber was cut with a reamer that had been dimensioned for smaller Remington brass (He trimmed the Lapua for the shorter case length spec. of the older chamber design.) At first his gunsmith simply polished out the back of the chamber to a size that would smoothly accept new or sized cases, but when firing revealed that cases were getting tight at lower pressures than they had been with the Remington brass, the chamber was recut with a reamer that was designed for the Lapua cases, that had more clearance. Problem solved. That rifle is now being successfully loaded to some impressive velocities, with no tight bolt issues.

I used that information when, at the request of a friend, I specified the dimensions of a shorter than stock throated (allowing loading with bullets into the rifling, at magazine length) tight neck, 300 Weatherby reamer. Although the throat length, neck diameter, and shoulder location were changed, the body diameter dimensions were not. We started low in our pressure testing, and worked up gradually, loading at the range, with a single case, that we neck sized. measuring belt diameter as we went. After seven or eight firings, going past the point where there was an ejector mark on the case head (relatively large diameter ejector) to the point where the belt diameter moved the second time (firs time on first firing that showed no pressure signs), I could easily chamber the fired case. It was remarkable.

I am not suggesting that anyone repeat any of this, and take no responsibility if they do. The point of the story was to illustrate something about the nature of brass, and chamber design.
 
Webster wrote: "I always wondered if pulling an expander plug through a case neck moved the shoulder forward."

The only thing I have ever done to an empty cartridge that does not move one of its many measurable bare brass dimensions is wipe the dirt off of it.

So Webster, maybe we should expect that "pushing" an expander plug through a case neck moved the shoulder "backward", and then pulling it back through the neck moves the shoulder forward. Something sure as heck is gonna move unless everything is a loose fit.

Maybe we'll never know if the case body to die fit is perfect to begin with.

But I do know that something gets moved forward 'cause I typically see that my cases come out of this operation longer than when they went in.....and, tho trimmed to the exact same length before this operation, as a test, and were as uniform in all other aspects as I could make them, they came out at randomly different lengths....needing another trimming before charging


Frank B.
 
If your cases become longer from FL sizing, it is the reduction in diameter of the body of the case, and the shoulder being bumped that are primarily responsible. If the expander has only slight interference , the pull on a case' shoulder is negligible.

Back in the day, I had a RCBS .220 Swift FL die lapped out for minimum resizing of the body of the case. The amount that the case got longer when sized was cut in half.
 

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