Neck sizing vs full length

[David Milisock]

I agree with you on "not the rifle, it's the reloader" that's the problem. The reloader also needs to account for the condition of his rifle. What I said sounded more like a blanket statement against old rifles. Not true. I reload for a bunch of Mausers, Mosin's, and 1880's-1890's rifles. One of the things about a Mauser 98 model (of many kinds) is they have a gas escape path that modern rifles don't duplicate. A nice feature, but one shouldn't be tempted to use it.

As that pertains to this thread, one reason I try for the lowest accuracy node possible is for that reason with both modern and old. I find I'm never pushing the brass to a point of failure and am able to inspect it well enough that I can find issues on the reload bench instead of on the shooting bench. I load for brass fitting and not moving. I'm typically one to two grains below what my shooting partner uses in approximately the same bullet

I find bench rest/target shooting tedious and boring, however the techniques are many times useful, when followed incrementally they always lead to a point where effort verses return on that effort converge and then separate.

I could list dozens of little things that help a rifle and load shoot better that are safe, simple and really return results that came from the bench game. Then more that have near zero effect on hits on target in the field but are talked about just as much. Field shooting is a different situation, I'm sure I'm not the best but I've been successful at ranges starting at the end of my arm to just over 1,500 yards.

Unless you don't know how to set your dies properly I would not list full length sizing verses neck sizing on the real gain column either way you size them.

If I have issues with mixing my loads with the same caliber rifles I figure I'll need my butt kicked, it's never happened in over 5 decades.

I do think that neck sizing seems to extend the life of brass which is why I do it. Hammering 6MM Remington cases with 65,000 PSI max loads, (many pieces in excess of 20 times some maybe 30 times) over the last 30 years has convinced me of that. The load pushes a 75 grain VMAX at 3,900 FPS, prints regulary 1 1/16" at 300 yards if I don't have too much coffee. On dozens of occasions on the same range visit it has printed multiple 300 yard groups I could cover with a dime, when I don't have loads of stress or have too much coffee and do my part. I do heat test all my loads in excess of the temperature they will be shot at so there are no surprises.

This combo has wacked crows out to 600 yards, on more than 1 occasion, I only count 1 shot 1 kill. So I find the discussion on neck or full length sizing less than enlightening .

With that said I do find the nonchalant nature of the over pressure loads, enlightening and not in a good way.

 

[1911nut]

Exactly how were you full length sizing?

I use a Redding FL bushing die, bumping the shoulders ~0.002”. All loads were Lapua brass, necks turned, same size bushing.

The loads shot good, just that groups in the 0’s and 1’s were less frequent when full length sized.

 

[Ledd Slinger]

I beg to differ with you, All I do is load development at 100 and shoot 1000 and it works for me. you try to shoot a ten shot group around here it will be big, the conditions vary too much to try to do load development at 1000. Don't spread BS. that isn't fact, maybe out west it may be different. Plus I don't know of one good long range shooter that doesn't full length size .... jim

Early in the morning before the thermals change is your window where I live. Not much wind until about 10:30 am unless a storm is moving in or heading out.
Nothing BS about it. I have way too much evidence on paper of great groups at 100 from many different rifles that won’t stay together at long range to change my view on this subject so I fully stand by my statement.

I’m not saying that I haven’t had rifles shoot great in 100 yard testing then also shoot great at long range, but I’ve had enough groups fool me at 100 yards that I don’t even mess with testing at that range anymore. Maybe not everyone agrees and that’s fine, but there are plenty of well established competitive long range shooters that would agree with me.

I have had most of my 300 yard groups maintain very similar accuracy farther out. Still, the farther out you test, the better you can see the true characteristics of a load.

 

[INTJ]

It's not about chambers showing a preference for annealing or not. It's that with the right dimensions and attention to detail there's not going to be much work being done on the brass where one may even not have to size the necks after firing. Therefore, not annealing required to extend brass life. . . for the most part.

See this part of the Secrets of the Houston Warehouse article:

"Virgil did not size his case necks. With about .00035" clearance on all sides between the loaded round and chamber neck, the natural spring-back of the brass, in combination with his neck preparation, correctly gripped the bullets. Some other warehouse shooters, including T.J. Jackson, followed the same practice.

Cases, however, did wear out. Virgil estimated that a case would no longer grip and “snap” to his satisfaction when it had been recycled 20 to 25 times. It was then discarded."

Three and a half tenths is awfully tight clearance. I don't think anyone in LR BR runs that tight. The range for neck clearance is usually .002" - .004" for the 6mms.

 

[INTJ]

I use a Redding FL bushing die, bumping the shoulders ~0.002”. All loads were Lapua brass, necks turned, same size bushing.

The loads shot good, just that groups in the 0’s and 1’s were less frequent when full length sized.

Did you try to adjust the tune when FL sizing to see if you could get back to where you were?

 

[Jennb]

Can anybody play? FL sized with Redding bushing die. 1000 yard FTR womens National record
200-13x with a .308
5” X ring

 

[JohnKielly]

Nothing BS about it. I have way too much evidence on paper of great groups at 100 from many different rifles that won’t stay together at long range to change my view on this subject so I fully stand by my statement.

That's why I have a tuner on my 1000-1200 yard gun. You can't guarantee a 100/200 yard group will go the distance, but most, if not all of the time, you can tuner tweak a load with good ES & SD and a suitable velocity to shoot at those distances.

 

[1911nut]

Did you try to adjust the tune when FL sizing to see if you could get back to where you were?

I tried minor changes in COL and powder charge, I might wring that out some more but first I’ll go back to neck sizing to confirm. I never had hard bolt close or open with either.

 

[DHuffman]

Can anybody play? FL sized with Redding bushing die. 1000 yard FTR womens National record
200-13x with a .308
5” X ring

Congratulations!

 

[INTJ]

I tried minor changes in COL and powder charge, I might wring that out some more but first I’ll go back to neck sizing to confirm. I never had hard bolt close or open with either.

If you aren't getting hard bolt opening after 3-4 firings then you probably don't have a compelling reason to change anything. Many of us thought we had a great load and then got sticky bolt lift on the third firing that wouldn't go away until we bumped the shoulder.

 

[1911nut]

If you aren't getting hard bolt opening after 3-4 firings then you probably don't have a compelling reason to change anything. Many of us thought we had a great load and then got sticky bolt lift on the third firing that wouldn't go away until we bumped the shoulder.

I saw some harder to close bolt with my Swift and 22-250 Varmint Guns when neck sizing and went to FL sizing, they seem to shoot the same, but they’re 1/4 to 1/2 minute guns.

 

[johara1]

I find bench rest/target shooting tedious and boring, however the techniques are many times useful, when followed incrementally they always lead to a point where effort verses return on that effort converge and then separate.

I could list dozens of little things that help a rifle and load shoot better that are safe, simple and really return results that came from the bench game. Then more that have near zero effect on hits on target in the field but are talked about just as much. Field shooting is a different situation, I'm sure I'm not the best but I've been successful at ranges starting at the end of my arm to just over 1,500 yards.

Unless you don't know how to set your dies properly I would not list full length sizing verses neck sizing on the real gain column either way you size them.

If I have issues with mixing my loads with the same caliber rifles I figure I'll need my butt kicked, it's never happened in over 5 decades.

I do think that neck sizing seems to extend the life of brass which is why I do it. Hammering 6MM Remington cases with 65,000 PSI max loads, (many pieces in excess of 20 times some maybe 30 times) over the last 30 years has convinced me of that. The load pushes a 75 grain VMAX at 3,900 FPS, prints regulary 1 1/16" at 300 yards if I don't have too much coffee. On dozens of occasions on the same range visit it has printed multiple 300 yard groups I could cover with a dime, when I don't have loads of stress or have too much coffee and do my part. I do heat test all my loads in excess of the temperature they will be shot at so there are no surprises.

This combo has wacked crows out to 600 yards, on more than 1 occasion, I only count 1 shot 1 kill. So I find the discussion on neck or full length sizing less than enlightening .

With that said I do find the nonchalant nature of the over pressure loads, enlightening and not in a good way.

That is really funny, in the early days of the PPC. they didn't FL. size and then some even threw the brass away at the end of the match. Then they started FL resizing and now with annealing and FL sizing I have shot and won with brass shot over a 100 times. Neck sizing is a waste of brass and when you can't get in or out the gun and FL size it will shoot different. A properly FL sized case shoots best, A properly FL sized case that is annealed will shoot best longer. ...... I never lost a case for a cracked neck since I started annealing ....... jim

 

[David Milisock]

That is really funny, in the early days of the PPC. they didn't FL. size and then some even threw the brass away at the end of the match. Then they started FL resizing and now with annealing and FL sizing I have shot and won with brass shot over a 100 times. Neck sizing is a waste of brass and when you can't get in or out the gun and FL size it will shoot different. A properly FL sized case shoots best, A properly FL sized case that is annealed will shoot best longer. ...... I never lost a case for a cracked neck since I started annealing ....... jim

This (annealing) is one of the things I spoke about that has near zero return for the field shooter. I bought a 700 Remington in 6MM Remington over 30 years ago. At 20 cents a piece I bought 500 new cases, I can buy new cases today for 50 cents but I still have most of what I bought years ago.

I've shot 1 box of factory ammo in the rifle, I've shot out the barrel with neck sized reloads and replaced it. I shoot cases 25 to 30 times and dump them. It costs more in materials and time to anneal than to replace the brass. I have a life and a business to run so my time has to have a significant return.

Granted bench rest is a meticulous process which does provide the field shooter some insight to techniques that may prove useful. However it's a stringent game that has very little to do with a field shooter who develops a process to take 600+ yard cold bore shots at targets that range in size from a crow to an elk. These shots are taken in conditions that can be as varied as simple as the natural environment to taking shots while being shot at or shot.

As I posted before when I'm in the groove my 6mm prints dime sized groups over and over at 300 yards and 1 1/8" any day of the week in high winds, its a factory rifle with a replacement factory barrel. What techniques can be used to improve this rifle and how much better will it be?

My reason for posting my first question was the blatant disregard for what I assumed (make an ass out of you and me) are common safety standards thst are being discussed as the norm not only here but in the 6mm section of this forum. Having to tap open bolts, guys with ARs having to pry brass off the bolt because of over pressure. I don't remember if it was this forum but I'm seeing destroyed firearms and injuries.

This stuff is crazy talk plain and simple. What you do to yourself is your business but think about the shooter next to you!

 

[rardoin]

David, nowhere on this thread or on this forum did I ever see anyone advocating shooting loads that required one to hammer the bolt open or pry cases off the bolt face. What I have seen is to the contrary. I think you have taken some comments out of context.

 

[XTR]

What is the most common practice amongst distance shooters, f-class, prs? Neck sizing only (with a mandrel after) or full sizing?

My bold...

A lot of drift in this thread.

To the OP's original question. If you are looking at F class I think it's safe to say that 90% or more FL. I only know of one top level F-TR shooter (he's in Canada) that neck sizes, and he FL sizes at some frequency, I forget what. There may be more but everyone I recall speaking with in recent yrs FL sizes. I haven't polled the top 50 but I'm pretty confident you aren't going to find 5 in there that don't FL.

As for PRS, I only dabble there, but I can't imagine anyone shooting in an event where you have 90 seconds to build a position and engage multiple targets at multiple ranges risking a sticky case from neck sizing.

In shooting there are always at least 3 ways to do most things. Find the one that works for you and stick with it.

 

[johara1]

My bold...

A lot of drift in this thread.

To the OP's original question. If you are looking at F class I think it's safe to say that 90% or more FL. I only know of one top level F-TR shooter (he's in Canada) that neck sizes, and he FL sizes at some frequency, I forget what. There may be more but everyone I recall speaking with in recent yrs FL sizes. I haven't polled the top 50 but I'm pretty confident you aren't going to find 5 in there that don't FL.

As for PRS, I only dabble there, but I can't imagine anyone shooting in an event where you have 90 seconds to build a position and engage multiple targets at multiple ranges risking a sticky case from neck sizing.

In shooting there are always at least 3 ways to do most things. Find the one that works for you and stick with it.

All of this what damage the tight bolt does to the lugs..... and if you play in the dirt you can't grease them.... jim

 

[INTJ]

I saw some harder to close bolt with my Swift and 22-250 Varmint Guns when neck sizing and went to FL sizing, they seem to shoot the same, but they’re 1/4 to 1/2 minute I am not sure that a rifle that seems to stop shooting the occasional 0 or .1 at 100 yds can be attributed to to a change in loading methods. The wind can blow them in as much as it blows them out. While that is very evident at long range, it does show up in short range as well.

I spend a lot of time trying to sort out such things. My ultimate test is performance in matches, and I spend a lot of time chasing that last .1 MOA. To that end I evaluate a load by the typical groups it shoots.

While I have no doubt that on occasion a slow fired 5-shot group shot with tight fitting brass would shoot an outstanding group, I have never seen that kind of load do well in typical match conditions.

There are always exceptions,

I saw some harder to close bolt with my Swift and 22-250 Varmint Guns when neck sizing and went to FL sizing, they seem to shoot the same, but they’re 1/4 to 1/2 minute guns.

I am not sure that a rifle that seems to stop shooting the occasional 0 or .1 at 100 yds can be attributed to to a change in loading methods. The wind can blow them in as much as it blows them out. While that is very evident at long range, it does show up in short range as well. Micro conditions are hard to see.

I have also seen groups open slightly with very small changes in throat erosion, a different lot of bullets, powder, primers, etc. So I don't think it has to do with how tight the brass fits the chamber.

I spend a lot of time trying to sort out such things. While I have no doubt that on occasion a 5-shot group shot with tight fitting brass--even if slow fired--would shoot an outstanding group, I have never seen that kind of load consistently do well in typical match conditions. I have also seen a generally mediocre load shoot and outstanding group. Conditions are a much bigger factor that we often realize.

So your experience with that one rifle is interesting.

 

[Lkwebb]

Yup pure bull, nobody full length sizes in F Class See you at the nationals, I will bring an extra hammer all the top shooters carry one or two.

Somebody give him the link to Erik cortina asking the top guys what they do..lol

 

[Steve Blair]

My reason for posting my first question was the blatant disregard for what I assumed (make an ass out of you and me) are common safety standards thst are being discussed as the norm not only here but in the 6mm section of this forum. Having to tap open bolts, guys with ARs having to pry brass off the bolt because of over pressure. I don't remember if it was this forum but I'm seeing destroyed firearms and injuries.

This stuff is crazy talk plain and simple. What you do to yourself is your business but think about the shooter next to you!

Straw man argument.

 

[dolek]

Somebody give him the link to Erik cortina asking the top guys what they do..lol

Hilarious ! No reality TV for me .