Neck sizing or FL?

[Richard Coody]

This is an insane argument

It is what works for you. All kinds of methods can produce accurate ammo.

When you read the stuff the top shooters in the world in their chosen competition do they all do things differently.

Consistency is the key whatever method you use. If you are happy with the results that is all that matters.

 

[fguffey]

This is an insane argument

If the question was about neck sizing or returning the case to minimum length/full length sized I will disagree with you. There are rifles that make shooter look good, there are rifles that are almost impossible to turn into accurate rifles. There was a silly saying that went something like: "Bench resters full length size their cases and have been doing for years". If I made such a claim I would list the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the full length sized case from the shoulder to the case head.

I am the fan of reducing all that case travel.

F. Guffey

 

[dkhunt14]

If the question was about neck sizing or returning the case to minimum length/full length sized I will disagree with you. There are rifles that make shooter look good, there are rifles that are almost impossible to turn into accurate rifles. There was a silly saying that went something like: "Bench resters full length size their cases and have been doing for years". If I made such a claim I would list the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the full length sized case from the shoulder to the case head.

I am the fan of reducing all that case travel.

F. Guffey

This is probably one of your better posts. You always avoid everybody's questions and never talk of group size or show pictures of targets. Yet you always talk about these accurate rifles you have, but never say how accurate or show pics of groups. Matt

 

[ireload2]

How much is "all that case travel"?

It sounds like you do not have much experience with bench rest quality hardware....

If the question was about neck sizing or returning the case to minimum length/full length sized I will disagree with you. There are rifles that make shooter look good, there are rifles that are almost impossible to turn into accurate rifles. There was a silly saying that went something like: "Bench resters full length size their cases and have been doing for years". If I made such a claim I would list the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the full length sized case from the shoulder to the case head.

I am the fan of reducing all that case travel.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

There was a silly saying that went something like: "Bench resters full length size their cases and have been doing for years". If I made such a claim I would list the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the full length sized case from the shoulder to the case head.

Ireload2, now tell me, how would you determine the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the case from the shoulder to the case head?

F. Guffey

 

[leatherstocking]

Would you start by clambering the case, then close the bolt, then add shims to the case head until the bolt close was nocieably harder, then measure the shim or use a known shim, like a scrap from a feeler gauge?

 

[FrankLD46]

Years ago I started neck sizing and still do for a couple calibers in bolt guns, varmints and general shooting, not competing. I was always under the impression that it made better groups. The last few months I've been shooting some 1000 yd steel matches and some of the better shooters say they full length size always. I've also read that some benchrest shooters FL size also. The theorie of neck sizing always made sence to me in bolt guns. I guess I can't see the benefits of FL sizing unless shooting an automatic. Am I missing somthing? Let's hear some opions. Thanks.

neck siziny neck s g is best for accracy i shoot benchrest 6ppc and onlo chamber a cartridge ooy neck size in a bolt gun when you push the b olt forward to he bolthchamber a cartridge you should have a little resitennce when you push the cartridge in the chamber and lock down the bolt that little bit of resistance tells me the cartridge case has its shoulder seated against the chamber so when rifle is fiired there is no cartrige jump

 

[FrankLD46]

Ireload2, now tell me, how would you determine the difference in length between the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face and the case from the shoulder to the case head?

F. Guffey

why do u need tto know this

 

[fguffey]

why do u need to know this?

Why do I need to know? I can not believe there is reloader on this forum that can not determine the length of a chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face and the length of a case from the shoulder to the case head. I am sure I can measure the length of a chamber in thousandths 3 different ways, same for the case length from the shoulder/datum to the case head.

For me it is easy, my cases do not have head space, my cases have a length that is measured from the datum to the case head.

F. Guffey

 

[Knotwild]

So, would there be as much difference in neck sizing vs. full length in Ackley Improved cases with say, 40 degree shoulders?

 

[fguffey]

So, would there be as much difference in neck sizing vs. full length in Ackley Improved cases

I do not believe reloaders understand the difference as in the difference between a case that has been neck sized and a case that has been full length sized.
Me? I do not want anything between the case body and chamber but air' I do not want a lot of air but the air that is between the case and chamber must be clean. I understand that makes no sense to anyone but when I add time as a factor the full length sized case is smaller in diameter and has a shorter case length than the neck sized case.

So what does have time to have to do with it. The full length/sized case must expand and fill the chamber before pressure can get serious. The neck sized case does not have air between the case body and chamber meaning when the powder goes things get serious in a hurry.

F. Guffey

 

[SheepDog]

My neck sized cases have more internal volume than a full sized case so I wonder how the powders burn rate changes with more internal volume compared to having to expand the case to the size of the chamber. I wonder how a reloader can measure the pressure/time curve of the powder in their guns.
I believe you can get accuracy out of either.

 

[jds holler]

I am an expert only about that which I like. On this topic, this is what I like.

I take a case which has been fired in the rifle I'm loading for. I especially like a case which exhibits slightly tight bolt lift.

I then carefully and incrementally start sizing the case in a full length sizing die, lowering the die until I feel the shoulder contacting the die. This will "usually" occur before the die contacts the shell holder.

At this point I try the case in my rifle's chamber, and if the bolt lifts easily, I may quit and lock the die in at that point. If not, I'll lower the die a "smidge" more. This is almost always enough to give me the easy bolt lift I want.

How much is a "smidge"?? That is the air that F Guffy is talking about - I think.

If when firing this batch of ammo, I still get sticky bolt lift, I will look for excessive pressure, and if I judge that things are OK, I may lower the die another "smidge".

I am a simple man, and this technique may work for others like me.jd

 

[dmoran]

.....For me it is easy, my cases do not have head space, my cases have a length that is measured from the datum to the case head.

 

[BoydAllen]

This whole discussion has suffered from a lack of definition. If by FL sizing you are talking about a factory one piece die, and I am talking about die that is a custom fit to my chamber, we are not talking about the same thing. Properly made custom dies hardly change the external dimensions of a fired case. Factory one piece FL dies typically reduce the size of fired cases quite a bit, and because the neck IDs of those dies are overly small, when the expander is pulled through the sized neck, the case neck becomes cocked relative to the body. (The same thing happens with typical one piece neck dies, only worse, because the body is not held in alignment by the die.) When we start a discussion on this topic, we really need to define our dies. Are we talking about one piece FL dies off of the shelf, used with factory chambers and unturned necks? Are the neck dies one piece, bushing, or collet? It makes a difference. Finally, why are you asking in the first place? Test one against the other and then you will know which works best with your dies and your chambers. The vast majority of short range benchrest shooters FL size with dies that are a custom fit to their chambers. They do this because it gives them better results.

 

[Knotwild]

This whole discussion has suffered from a lack of definition.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I am here to learn and my experience is limited. The method that has worked for me for quite some time was learned from a record holding benchrest shooter and now custom rifle maker. But, I am realizing that what I learned then, was used by him probably in the 70's. And I am finding it is pretty outdated. I have a rifle now that is throwing fliers and I am betting it is because of neck sizing and not annealing brass.

I am here to learn, not proclaim my way as best, and I do believe I am picking up some knowledge.

Thanks

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I dont know a single competitor that neck sizes today. Why? Aside from the fact it is necessary to chamber a round due to the high pressure loads, they shoot better. In the past they tried to tighten everything up, we have learned that was the wrong direction. Through testing we have seen that everything needs some room to perform best. Bullets, freebores, neck clearance, cases, exc. tighten any of that up too much and the guns get finicky.

Unlike guffy, I find talking to Benchrest shooters very interesting. They are responsible for almost every accuracy improvement we have seen in the last 50 years.

 

[jds holler]

Any of the dies that I've used, except for carbide sizers, instruct you to set them with the die firmly contacting the shell holder in the "sized" position. I believe that this will give the best consistency, which is always a good thing. Setting the die higher to better match the chamber may be OK, and I do it, but it would be best to get a shell holder with a taller deck height after you determine your new setting. jd

 

[BoydAllen]

I say this with great conviction. Ignore those instructions. Set your dies by doing proper measurement.

Years ago, when many reloaders (including me) had no clue about setting dies, I knew fellows that were sure that the reason that their belted magnum cases failed after just a few firings was because of "magnum pressures". If they had known better, and set their dies properly using a gauge for measurement, those cases would have lasted as long as any other.

The reason that the problem is worse for belted cases is that there are no SAAMI standards as far as chamber dimensions from head to shoulder. Headspace for belted cases is from the front of the belt. In order that new belted cases will fit every rifle they are made quite short at the shoulder, and dies are made that way as well, so that they can be used to size brass for all rifles. This is not a problem as long as the first firing is the only one where the case is blown out a long way, but if the shoulder is sized back as far as the die will allow (with the die in contact with the shell holder) and blown out repeatedly, cases will fail prematurely. I have worked with a couple of belted magnums helping friends. Comparing new to once fired brass for a 7mm Mag. as well as a .300 Weatherby, the difference, shoulder to head was about .021".

 

[Eraser]

Can anyone say just how much a custom die resizes? Is it a .001, .0005, less?