Neck Sizing or FL Sizing

[amlevin]

Amlevin--I did consider the Forster bushing bump neck die but when I called Forster the tech recommended the Benchrest FL die and hone it. Said with the bushing bump die at some point would have to FL size when brass chambers beyond desired feel, and could achieve very similar results with the one FL die honed and do it all in one step. He also stated since I am not turning necks at this point, this route may be better option. Said the bushing bump die would be best if I turned necks. This is what somewhat got me thinking and started this thread.

BoydAllen-- like you said with getting bushing to barely feel expander ball, I am thinking if Forster die is honed close I can use the different size expander ball to get the felling you are talking about.

Awesome information from y'all!!! Much appreciated. I am wanting to learn instead of just doing what other people do and not understand why/how they do it

I certainly understand the benefit of using a F/L die, honed out, but aren't you overlooking something???

If you aren't neck turning, just using the bushing to lightly touch the inside of case neck, for which case(s).

Maybe I lost something along the way but the best outcome comes from having case necks all the same thickness or the expander ball will hit some harder than others, sometimes if at all.

Is there a particular reason you aren't turning necks?

 

[savageshooter86]

Well I don't have a gauging tool for determining neck thickness, nor the neck turning tools, no reason

in the bulleting section on Sept 26, David Bailey article stated

David says he does “very little brass prep” other than sorting his Remington brass. (That’s right — Remington!) He does use an expander ball during reloading to push out any neck-wall-thickness variations

Interesting

 

[quartermaster]

"Those of us that know how to properly F/L size a case do not use expander balls. No offense intended"

Good morning, that's exactly what I have been saying. No need to get nasty or sarcastic. It seems that we have a misunderstanding in the definition of FL resizing.

Up here in the woods of upper New York State, full length resizing is setting your die to touch the shell holder and doing a full length sizing, which includes running the expander up through the neck.

Setting the shoulder back would mean partial sizing to me and the separate step of addressing the necks only is considered neck sizing for me once again.

I believe most of the people who took the time to read all the posts on this thread understood where I was coming from.

There were many good comments made here. I hope the OP got his question answered and will take all points made into consideration as he moves forward into his new obsession.

QM

 

[savageshooter86]

Sure will. I actually am sending my Collet Die back to Lee Precision first thing Monday morning. It keeps locking up on me and deforming the shoulders of the brass. Sizes 3-4 perfect then BAM!!! Messed up case and have to take die apart and reset the collet/mandral then repeat above process. Wasting my time with the LCD at this point. Been fighting this for a week now and tired of ruining cases.

Not sure from posts exactly who uses this die but I set die to touch shell holder then turn 1/2 more then lower ram and barely put pressure until I feel collet close, that's as much pressure as I put. So not understanding why the die keeps locking up and ruining cases. Ruined probably 10 over the past 2 weeks

 

[amlevin]

Sure will. I actually am sending my Collet Die back to Lee Precision first thing Monday morning. It keeps locking up on me and deforming the shoulders of the brass. Sizes 3-4 perfect then BAM!!! Messed up case and have to take die apart and reset the collet/mandral then repeat above process. Wasting my time with the LCD at this point. Been fighting this for a week now and tired of ruining cases.

Not sure from posts exactly who uses this die but I set die to touch shell holder then turn 1/2 more then lower ram and barely put pressure until I feel collet close, that's as much pressure as I put. So not understanding why the die keeps locking up and ruining cases. Ruined probably 10 over the past 2 weeks

My first Lee Collet die did this too. I then disassembled it, spread the "segments" of the collet a little more an lubricated the sliding surfaces with some silver Anti-Seize compound. Just enough to coat the sliding surfaces of the collet, not drip or ooze into unwanted areas. This shoulder crushing is a thing of the past for me. For some reason just plain gun grease or oil didn't cut it.

My dies are screwed in a full two turns after initial setting of just touching the die. I then try to approximate the 25 ft/lbs on the press handle. If you allow "cam over" in a press like a Rock Chucker, you run the risk of this causing the die to jam thus causing this problem. A clue to it's imminent recurrence is a scraped look on the neck of the case you just finished. This is a sign that the collet is not releasing.

 

[BoydAllen]

OMO that line about someone having superior knowledge about FL sizing is just puffery, a substitution of bluster and pedantic attitude for convincing argument.

If a die has been honed out, or it is a bushing die, that is paired with a properly selected bushing, AND unturned necks are being used, because the chamber that the ammo is being loaded for has a neck diameter that is not a good match for turned necks, using an expander can be an advantage, and will not cause concentricity problems.

Unturned necks have irregularities both in thickness, and average thickness. If you size these necks without an expander, the bullet pull will tend to vary with the differences in average thickness, and the irregularities on thickness of individual cases will result in the ID of the sized neck not being as round as with the expander.

IMO all of this expander phobia comes from incorrect perception as to the cause of case crookedness from old fashioned one piece dies.
The reason for the concentricity issues that these dies have, with unturned necks, (if they have not been honed out in the neck) is that the ID of the neck portion of the die is too small, so that the expander has too much work to do as the sized neck is drawn over it. This causes so much pull on the case, that the shoulder yields slightly, and because case shoulders are not perfectly symmetrical in thickness and hardness, they yield asymmetrically, cocking the case neck, relative to the case body. If the die has been honed out so that the expander has minimal work to do, or a proper bushing size is used, all of this goes away, and a slight amount of expanding is done, without making the case crooked. In these cases, if a different neck tension is required, a different sizer ball diameter is used.

As an additional little tidbit of information that may dispel the idea that expanding necks is inherently an "evil" operation. I know a fellow who has been nationally known, in the thousand yard benchrest game, for years, and who has, in the past, has shot records, who told me that when preparing his match brass (turned necks) that the last step is to slightly expand their necks, using an expander mandrel. He feels that he gets more uniform bullet pull this way, and as you may know, this is a factor in producing more uniform velocities.

 

[amlevin]

As an additional little tidbit of information that may dispel the idea that expanding necks is inherently an "evil" operation. I know a fellow who has been nationally known, in the thousand yard benchrest game, for years, and who has, in the past, has shot records, who told me that when preparing his match brass (turned necks) that the last step is to slightly expand their necks, using an expander mandrel. He feels that he gets more uniform bullet pull this way, and as you may know, this is a factor in producing more uniform velocities.

Although I am merely a "Sport Shooter" and shoot purely for my own amusement, I too prefer to use and expander mandrel. Deep down in my "lizard brain" it would seem that using a straight mandrel would yield less variations than a poorly supported "ball" that is allowed to follow the path of least resistance.

Any comments Boyd on the merits or downsides of either?

 

[BoydAllen]

I have a one piece .22-250 die, that has the "classic" too small inside diameter in the neck. After trying it with the expander, including with lube, and not being satisfied with the results (factory chamber, unturned necks, varmint rifle) I tried my Sinclair expander mandrel and die, that were designed to prepare cases for turning. The results were much better. I should mention that the only rifles that I have that has a tight necked chamber, or was built for match work, are my PPCs, and for those I use bushing dies that are closely matched to my chamber.

 

[savageshooter86]

BoydAllen: that is exactly what I think my Lee FL die is doing. Sizing the neck down too much then the expander(which is not a ball) works the brass too much. I can feel it "tugging" on the neck when lowering the ram. That is why I assume it would be beneficial to not use that particular die anymore when I need to bump the brass back down slightly

IRC the brass neck measurement of my Lee FL sizing die WITHOUT the expander in was 0.008" less than fired case. Then add the expander having to be pushed in then pulled back out, was told that shows that particular die is working the brass alot

***Ok got the Collet Die set up and it is producing about 0.0018 neck tension. Avg neck size of seated bullet is 0.3341 and collet die is producing necks 0.3323***

Now I need to get me the redding body die ordered I suspect and the Forster seating die

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

To the OP. I think your procedure is just not complicated enough to suit some people, you need to work harder and add more steps to your brass prep. Maybe buy it dinner and take it to a movie.

Erik had it completely right, for F-class competition where you have a certain number of cases and you reuse them a lot, you should be F/L sizing them every time with something like a Redding S F/L bushing die, w/o the expander ball. You want your cases to be the same every time, something which you simply can't do with neck sizing every time and body sizing once in a while.

Also, it your neck tension is .018 you are probably deforming the bullets. I use .002 for neck tension, you are using 9 times as much. Seating bullets must be fun. Why do you feel you need so much neck tension?

 

[savageshooter86]

sorry edited last post I am getting 0.0018 neck tension

 

[jo191145]

OMO that line about someone having superior knowledge about FL sizing is just puffery, a substitution of bluster and pedantic attitude for convincing argument.

Or perhaps it was simply a statement of opinion written soley for the authors amusement at watching the peacocks ruffle thier tail feathers. ;D

FWIW. Not actually aimed at you Boyd but I am getting a chuckle out of this thread.

Bottom line, Its my belief a Redding S series FL die with expander removed is the best way to go for a factory barrel. Even with unturned brass. I know all the arguements that can be made against it. My expierience has taught me the benefits outweigh the detriments.

 

[quartermaster]

Here,here jo191145, FWIW, I agree. The was a lot of opinions thrown around in this thread, and I guess in the end, everyone survived and no one is leaving mad, or hopefully insulted. At least speaking for myself.

I know one thing, I will never get into an argument with Boyd, as he would kill me with his vocabulary. Perhaps an X-English teacher or maybe the author of a dictionary?

For me, it was fun, but for me, enough is enough on this topic for now.

I'm not sure if the OP got anything from this in one respect, but probably more than he bargained for in another.

Until next time QM

 

[Win94ae]

Some claim they get extended case life with neck sizing only...I do not buy this...I have some 22-250 Rem. cases that have been loaded 20 times or more..With fulllength sizing....So go figure....

I'm over 70 times and going strong with neck sizing only. No failures to chamber even with a lever action 30-30.

 

[savageshooter86]

Ok redding body die on the way to pair it with my Collet Die.

Preciate all the help

Also ordered the Forster CoAx case concentricity gauge so now I can see what my reloading pracitces are producing in the cases and final loaded rounds

 

[4runnerman]

Your question has been one that has been beat to death by so many people. I don't think you will ever get the answer here or on any other forum. I went down this road 2 years ago. I did exstensive testing on both. All said and done for me in my rifle
(Savage FVSS with Dog Tracker Stock ) Full length sizing won out ever time. This is a test you have to run on your own to see which it is that your rifle will shoot the best.
I know my answer did not help you for a yes or no,but what i have found is there is no yes or no,there is only what your rifle will like.