Years ago I started neck sizing and still do for a couple calibers in bolt guns, varmints and general shooting, not competing. I was always under the impression that it made better groups. The last few months I've been shooting some 1000 yd steel matches and some of the better shooters say they full length size always. I've also read that some benchrest shooters FL size also. The theorie of neck sizing always made sence to me in bolt guns. I guess I can't see the benefits of FL sizing unless shooting an automatic. Am I missing somthing? Let's hear some opions. Thanks.
Neck sizing or FL?
- Thread starter Intell
- Start date
This topic crops up every month or so. Use the search function and you will find MANY threads, all of which will tell you that competitive shooters FL size every time with a die that matches their chamber.
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/neck-sizing-or-full-length.3803903/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/neck-and-full-length-sizing.3594124/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/neck-or-full-length-resize.974329/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/full-length-or-neck-size.3791564/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/neck-or-full-length-size.3747356/
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/is-full-length-better.3802463/#post-36157079
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FL with a bushing and be done
Jet
Gold $$ Contributor
Do a test with 10 pieces of brass that has been fired in one of your chambers. Neck size them the way you have done previously then measure each one and compare the diameter of the web, neck/shoulder junction and shoulder to base. They will not be the same when using a neck sizing die.
Using a properly set up FL die will size them all to be as close to one another as the brass will allow. Shooting small requires consistency in all things and FL sizing works towards this goal.
Welcome to the forum and good shooting.
Rich
Using a properly set up FL die will size them all to be as close to one another as the brass will allow. Shooting small requires consistency in all things and FL sizing works towards this goal.
Welcome to the forum and good shooting.
Rich
Why would you use a FL die that doesn't work with your chamber?
While true custom dies are available (but expensive), it doesn't make sense (to me) to pay for a custom die unless you own the chambering reamer that works with the die. Otherwise, the die is only good for the life of 1 barrel. You can even buy a "factory" die first and have the chambering reamer ground to match the die.
If you are lucky (or smart) enough to shoot a chambering that the Harrells make dies for, you can get a custom fit for a factory price.
Shynloco
You can lead a horse to water, but ........
Intell,
You make a very timely post since I've seen this issue go back and forth for years. I shooting primarily Benchrest for accuracy and have tried both methods over the years. And even Benchrest Shooters I've shot with and/or spoken to, have varying opinions on the subject. Obviously, FL resizing takes a greater toll on casings than does neck sizing. But even more recently, in an article that appeared in the "Bulletin" section, the writer was promoting the need to "ONLY" Neck resize, if you have a custom chamber or are reloading repeatedly for the same chamber, thereby extending the life of the casings you are using.
Personally, as I said I've tried both ways. Neck sizing only CONFLICTS with the "accuracy" notion that "what you do to one, you do to all in the same manner." That conflict occurs when you assume every casing reacts in the same manner OR each casings isn't returned to the exact same beginning sizing, whether its a change of .001 compared to possibly say .002 in the casing's base size.
And I have therefore always have been FL resizing all my brass, regardless of the caliber. But just today I was at the range fine tuning my .260 Remington and decided to test some of the brass I had just fired. That to see if the bolt would be difficult to close because of the possible stretching or increase or decrease in shoulder angle of the now fired brass. To my surprise, the bolt was actually easier to close and upon later measuring the casings, the shoulders had changed less than .001, possible because the chamber is a custom chamber and therefore tight leaving little if any room for change. Therefore, I'm going to try and just Neck Size this time around rather than "bumping" the shoulders of the casings as I usually do. But I dare say, if you aren't chasing group size or testing powder/bullets loads, Neck Sizing will easily get you what you want, so long as its the same rifle and same brass being used repeatedly.
Alex
You make a very timely post since I've seen this issue go back and forth for years. I shooting primarily Benchrest for accuracy and have tried both methods over the years. And even Benchrest Shooters I've shot with and/or spoken to, have varying opinions on the subject. Obviously, FL resizing takes a greater toll on casings than does neck sizing. But even more recently, in an article that appeared in the "Bulletin" section, the writer was promoting the need to "ONLY" Neck resize, if you have a custom chamber or are reloading repeatedly for the same chamber, thereby extending the life of the casings you are using.
Personally, as I said I've tried both ways. Neck sizing only CONFLICTS with the "accuracy" notion that "what you do to one, you do to all in the same manner." That conflict occurs when you assume every casing reacts in the same manner OR each casings isn't returned to the exact same beginning sizing, whether its a change of .001 compared to possibly say .002 in the casing's base size.
And I have therefore always have been FL resizing all my brass, regardless of the caliber. But just today I was at the range fine tuning my .260 Remington and decided to test some of the brass I had just fired. That to see if the bolt would be difficult to close because of the possible stretching or increase or decrease in shoulder angle of the now fired brass. To my surprise, the bolt was actually easier to close and upon later measuring the casings, the shoulders had changed less than .001, possible because the chamber is a custom chamber and therefore tight leaving little if any room for change. Therefore, I'm going to try and just Neck Size this time around rather than "bumping" the shoulders of the casings as I usually do. But I dare say, if you aren't chasing group size or testing powder/bullets loads, Neck Sizing will easily get you what you want, so long as its the same rifle and same brass being used repeatedly.
Alex
In every chambering I have had, I found it necessary to FL size at some point after NS only. I always find best accuracy in the mid to max book loads. If the barrels tune required the max load then I was forced to FL size every time or else I would get a bolt click....meaning the back end of the brass was not sized down enough and this repeated occurrence causes unnecessary wear on the bolt lugs and abutments. IME NS loads shot POA differently than FL size. I want top accuracy and I want it to be consistent. The number 1 tenet in Benchrest is eliminate the variables. Switching from NS to FLS is creating a variable. If one has a mild load that provides them with satisfactory accuracy by NS only.......by all means stay with that program.
Intel, in the real world I find it very boring to talk to a bench rester, the part they always leave out is the cost of the rifle. I have rifles that are very accurate, I do not have more than $300.00 invested in a one of the accurate rifles and most of them I built out of parts with out pedigrees.
What is the difference between neck sizing and full length sizing? Time; time is the difference. I built a wildcat and then decided on a fire forming load. It was not a mistake but I shared the information on the Internet with reloaders/shooters etc., Only one kind responder suggested I was into some risky stuff. Seems the maximum charge of H4895 for a 150 grain bullet was too much powder for a 200 grain bullet when fire forming. Because he was not rude I considered I could be making a mistake but I did not belied there was a risk. I called Hodgdon, they said I was correct but after forming the cases the fire forming load would be on the jagged edge of maximum after forming. All of that because the fire formed case would be formed to the chamber and I would loose the time it took for the case to form. I formed the case, the shoulder of the cases did not move but in the process the cases shortened from the end of the neck to the case head .045". That seems to be an acceptable number for most but the wildcat chamber had a short neck; the neck was .217" long. Some consider the neck on the 300 Win Mag is short at .268", if .268" is short .217" is shorter. Point? I started over with cases that were .051" longer.
F. Guffey
"I have rifles that are very accurate, I do not have more than $300.00 invested in a one of the accurate rifles and most of them I built out of parts with out pedigrees."
Bring one to a BR match then!
You probably don't even use wind flags.
Bring one to a BR match then!
You probably don't even use wind flags.
That's because the tails would have to made of anchor chain to keep up with the self-generated wind.
Reloading is all about finding what meets your needs and consistently works for you in your guns.
If you don't try different things you will never know what you and your gun is capable of.
If you go from loading a full length sized case to neck sizing you will need a different load - that I can almost guarantee.
I have tried FL sizing, full neck sizing (down to the shoulder junction) and partial neck sizing (leaves part of the neck unsized. I got the best results with partial neck sizing and have used it since - about 40 years. I don't need to load to maximum pressures or even the maximum listed loads to get a consistently accurate load for my use. I don't shoot much beyond 200 yards except at the range and slightly under MOA is good enough for me. If I was shooting at 1000 yards then I might need more velocity to stay ahead of the transonic speeds and I would choose or design a case that would handle more powder without extremes in pressure.
There are those who push beyond the limits to get the velocity they want or need. As long as they are happy with it and keep from hurting the sport it's fine.
If you don't try different things you will never know what you and your gun is capable of.
If you go from loading a full length sized case to neck sizing you will need a different load - that I can almost guarantee.
I have tried FL sizing, full neck sizing (down to the shoulder junction) and partial neck sizing (leaves part of the neck unsized. I got the best results with partial neck sizing and have used it since - about 40 years. I don't need to load to maximum pressures or even the maximum listed loads to get a consistently accurate load for my use. I don't shoot much beyond 200 yards except at the range and slightly under MOA is good enough for me. If I was shooting at 1000 yards then I might need more velocity to stay ahead of the transonic speeds and I would choose or design a case that would handle more powder without extremes in pressure.
There are those who push beyond the limits to get the velocity they want or need. As long as they are happy with it and keep from hurting the sport it's fine.
When I first started reloading, 46 years ago, I only neck sized. With a Lee Loader no less! As I got more into it and got more reloading equipment and guns, I learned I needed to full length size cases. I now reload for 11 different calibers.
I have been told neck sizing can make your cases last up to 10 times. Full length sizing less. I don't shoot much now (3 - 4 times a year) and have never worn out or cracked a case.
The reason I believe most cases become unusable is too much pressure. I don't over load cases/rounds. I also have never had one of my reloads never fire.
The first reason I needed to full length size cases was because of some guns (currently 51), like the H&R single shots. Shoot a round through one, then reload it with a neck sizing die and it may not work correctly. It may fire, but you will have to use a rod to remove the case. The factory told me I have to full size the cases when reloading for H&R guns!
Neck sizing is only good when the case is used in the same gun! Every gun is different. Every guns chamber is different. When cases are shot in different rifles, you need to full length size them.
The extreme is this example. I have several 308 rifles. One Savage Axis, 2 Savage 10 FCP SRs, one Marlin X7 and one DPMS GII. Last winter I bought some once fired 308 military brass. With several 308s I needed to full length size them. Unbeknownst to me, they were used in automatics. The cases were so out of spec I have to run them through a full length sizing die 3 times before they were within spec! I normally spray one-shot on cases when reloading. This when I found out the best lube for problem cases is Lee's Resizing Lubricant!
By the way, I only use Lee equipment. 2 single stage presses for swagging and bullet pulling, 1 turret press, 1 classic turret press for other calibers used seldom like 45-70 and problem cases, 1 Lee Pro 1000 for 223 and 380 ACP and 1 Lee Load master for 22-250, 243, 25-06, 270, 308 and 30-06.
Some cases are not worth reloading right now. the 9mm is such a round. It is cheaper to buy them to reload them.
I have been told neck sizing can make your cases last up to 10 times. Full length sizing less. I don't shoot much now (3 - 4 times a year) and have never worn out or cracked a case.
The reason I believe most cases become unusable is too much pressure. I don't over load cases/rounds. I also have never had one of my reloads never fire.
The first reason I needed to full length size cases was because of some guns (currently 51), like the H&R single shots. Shoot a round through one, then reload it with a neck sizing die and it may not work correctly. It may fire, but you will have to use a rod to remove the case. The factory told me I have to full size the cases when reloading for H&R guns!
Neck sizing is only good when the case is used in the same gun! Every gun is different. Every guns chamber is different. When cases are shot in different rifles, you need to full length size them.
The extreme is this example. I have several 308 rifles. One Savage Axis, 2 Savage 10 FCP SRs, one Marlin X7 and one DPMS GII. Last winter I bought some once fired 308 military brass. With several 308s I needed to full length size them. Unbeknownst to me, they were used in automatics. The cases were so out of spec I have to run them through a full length sizing die 3 times before they were within spec! I normally spray one-shot on cases when reloading. This when I found out the best lube for problem cases is Lee's Resizing Lubricant!
By the way, I only use Lee equipment. 2 single stage presses for swagging and bullet pulling, 1 turret press, 1 classic turret press for other calibers used seldom like 45-70 and problem cases, 1 Lee Pro 1000 for 223 and 380 ACP and 1 Lee Load master for 22-250, 243, 25-06, 270, 308 and 30-06.
Some cases are not worth reloading right now. the 9mm is such a round. It is cheaper to buy them to reload them.
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I decided to let the results on paper settle this argument for me. Identical load except left group is with brass full length resized with Forster die that had the neck honed to .287 and the right group was neck sized with a Lee collet die. Both are 10 shot groups shot in round robin fashion.
John
Interpreter wanted..........Anyone?
LOL at the cluelessness. Should we break the news to Guffy that you and Sara campaigned Remington 722's for years garnering many shooter points over the years in Hunter BR. And that other guy, McKee who used those wildly expensive Remington 788's rather successfully?
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dmoran
Donovan Moran
You never said if its a short range, mid range or a long range gun.
Will it agg in the .2's or better at 100yds?
Will it agg under 1" at 300yds?
Will it agg under 3" at 600yds?
Will it agg under 5" at 1000yds?
If it can agg better then those numbers from 4 consecutive targets, you could have a chance at benchrest.
If not, you won't fair to well.
I neck size with a Redding bushing die and bump the shoulder .002 with a Redding body die. Seems to work for me.
By the way.....+1 for Eddie and Sara Harren they probably forgot more about Score Benchrest than I'll ever know!
Danny
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