NBRSA LR/BR Relay Format Poll and Discussion

[INTJ]

Well, they would have an advantage over a 6mm but not over those of us with 300 WSMs...

If then lead ban passes its a whole new game. If they do it in CA then my knuckle-headed state will soon follow suit. Then our only hope is all copper or other mono-metal bullets. Or maybe a bismuth core? I already use all copper for hunting, but it would be spendy if I had to use all copper for LR BR. That might push us away from 65-70 rounds a match.

 

[Keith Faller]

I think a change is needed I’m just not sure a drastic one would be good at this time. We need to see how attendance is when we can get matches going again. Some competitors may have picked up other hobbies or projects to stay busy. There are those that are also running in place, kinda like me Just waiting for the first match that hits the calendar even though I’ve been finishing projects that have been started for a while. I really enjoyed the couple of matches I was able to attend at deep creek with shooting one target at a time it can allow for a “ fair er “ match but with any match as soon as you can’t have all competitors that showed op on that given day shoot at the same time “ fair “ is gone. Also taking competitors that shoot 3 lg then 3 hg targets per relay all back to back and then going to one target at a time would loose more competitors than it gains in my opinion. With that said I think we probably could do a 3 lg switch 3 lg switch 3 hg switch 3 hg switch without a major re-writing of the rules, as far as I can tell based on my reading of them. That would make it “ fair er “ in my opinion and without re-writing of the complete rules and retirement of all records it’s worth a shot to try. Also I have seen and heard that 4 targets maybe instead of 6 but that would also require a complete change of rules and retirement of records and would be more like The other organizations so why bother changing just drop it all change organizations and hope everyone shows back up. One other thing I saw that caught my attention was shortened relays along with 3 targets per relay might be something to try. All in all I’m up for a change that can make a difference without trying to completely swing for the fence. I’d like to see what can be changed without a major change in paperwork that’s probably a volunteer position.

 

[bpmoss1]

I think a change is needed I’m just not sure a drastic one would be good at this time. We need to see how attendance is when we can get matches going again. Some competitors may have picked up other hobbies or projects to stay busy. There are those that are also running in place, kinda like me Just waiting for the first match that hits the calendar even though I’ve been finishing projects that have been started for a while. I really enjoyed the couple of matches I was able to attend at deep creek with shooting one target at a time it can allow for a “ fair er “ match but with any match as soon as you can’t have all competitors that showed op on that given day shoot at the same time “ fair “ is gone. Also taking competitors that shoot 3 lg then 3 hg targets per relay all back to back and then going to one target at a time would loose more competitors than it gains in my opinion. With that said I think we probably could do a 3 lg switch 3 lg switch 3 hg switch 3 hg switch without a major re-writing of the rules, as far as I can tell based on my reading of them. That would make it “ fair er “ in my opinion and without re-writing of the complete rules and retirement of all records it’s worth a shot to try. Also I have seen and heard that 4 targets maybe instead of 6 but that would also require a complete change of rules and retirement of records and would be more like The other organizations so why bother changing just drop it all change organizations and hope everyone shows back up. One other thing I saw that caught my attention was shortened relays along with 3 targets per relay might be something to try. All in all I’m up for a change that can make a difference without trying to completely swing for the fence. I’d like to see what can be changed without a major change in paperwork that’s probably a volunteer position.

Kieth, I hadn't thought about existing records being retired as a result of rules changes (probably because I never set any, lol) but wouldn't want to see that for sure and that would really limit what could be done. All in all I've never had any problem with the status quo, nor could anyone ever say they've heard me gripe because I don't. It's like fishing, a bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. I'm also not as serious as some. Your idea of 1st LG, 2nd LG 1st HG and 2nd HG sounds pretty good but I think 1st LG, 2nd LG, 2nd HG then 1st HG would be more fair and have 1 less switch. Also I do think cutting the time allowed to shoot each target in half would be beneficial. Also integrate a rule that each shooter notify rangemaster when they have finished shooting each target. That has always been a problem as guys (Me included) forget to pull bolt when done and match director thinks we are waiting. Or maybe have to step away from bench when done. Just 1 more way to speed things up. Still think it would be great to let guys shoot their f-open rifles (22lb limit) with us. Could be another class allowed to shoot with LG & HG. Hope you're all doing well, Barry.

 

[Keith Faller]

I think switching how to how you thought of 1-2 2-1 could work as well. For me the biggest change without the total overhaul would be best. So if you get a chance read the rules for all that pertains to targets, how many which should be 6 for a 1 day shoot but we could not find how the 6 have to be shot other than 3 light gun and 3 heavy gun. See what you come up with as that would mean no major rule changes just some clarification. On the change to light gun weight I hadn’t herd of many fclasss shooters wanting to try br but with a lot of shooters using a lg for hg maybe it could work out if raised up to their weight to draw them in?

 

[bpmoss1]

I think switching how to how you thought of 1-2 2-1 could work as well. For me the biggest change without the total overhaul would be best. So if you get a chance read the rules for all that pertains to targets, how many which should be 6 for a 1 day shoot but we could not find how the 6 have to be shot other than 3 light gun and 3 heavy gun. See what you come up with as that would mean no major rule changes just some clarification. On the change to light gun weight I hadn’t herd of many fclasss shooters wanting to try br but with a lot of shooters using a lg for hg maybe it could work out if raised up to their weight to draw them in?

The time I went to look for something in the rules and realized just how much there was to read I said screw that I'll take their word for it lol. And wouldn't need to change LG wt just add an Addl class to accommodate the f-open rifle and allow to shoot at same time just another class. Then I could shoot in that class and set the first record lol, jk. It may not be worth the trouble as I only know of 3 occasions (guys) that would have appreciated it. @The Pumpkin could answer your question without having to read the rules as he was once the President I'm sure he would know. Barry

 

[Keith Faller]

Barry I know how you feel about the rules I felt the same but once I printed them out and took a few sittings and read through them I’m glad I did so I know what I can and can’t do in those events of target problems or crossfires. I know it’s a pain but try and do it if you can so you know what to do. As for another class for 22lb it might be something worth trying to see how much participation we can get.

 

[bpmoss1]

There's a number of guys at Sac that shoot a club level f-class match the Sat before the lr br matches that are held on Sun. They allow the lr br guys to shoot off benches on one side of the line (F-bench) while the F-open guys shoot shoot their belly benchrest off the other end of the line. If we had a F-Open class in addition to LG and HG and a 2 class limit to competitors, LG could shoot LG and HG as it is now, and FO could shoot FO (at same time as LG) and HG. Wouldn't add any time to match, just more competitors and a new class.

 

[The Pumpkin]

There's a number of guys at Sac that shoot a club level f-class match the Sat before the lr br matches that are held on Sun. They allow the lr br guys to shoot off benches on one side of the line (F-bench) while the F-open guys shoot shoot their belly benchrest off the other end of the line. If we had a F-Open class in addition to LG and HG and a 2 class limit to competitors, LG could shoot LG and HG as it is now, and FO could shoot FO (at same time as LG) and HG. Wouldn't add any time to match, just more competitors and a new class.

Barry
It's my personal opinion that people that lay on the ground and shoot are not going to get up and shoot off a bench. D

 

[INTJ]

I don't understand the reluctance to retire records. The way it is now, if you hold a record you will eventually lose it. If the records are retired they become permanent and enshrined forever. We can even make special plaques.

 

[INTJ]

To me there are two issues. Fairness and participation. If you draw second relay, like I do 90% of the time, it's very likely you will not be competitive. With all the time and effort we spend it becomes very demotivating and that is why many in our small community won't bother with our format.

We need to find a better way, and the only real option is to add more swaps. A couple options:

Relay One: LG x2
Relay Two: HG x2
Relay One: HG x2
Relay Two: LG x2

Overall advantage is with Relay One

Relay One: LG x2
Relay Two: HG x2 and LG x2
Relay One: HG x2

Overall advantage is with Relay Two.

While neither is perfect, both are more equitable than what we have have now. More ideas?

 

[Keith Faller]

If we shoot relay 1 3 lg targets
Then relay 2 3 lg targets
relay 1 3 hg targets
relay 2 3 hg targets
We probably won’t have to completely re-write the rules but by changing to 2 targets per lg and hg you will.

 

[INTJ]

I am not bothered by completely rewriting the rules. I have done that sort of thing before. The question is how should we run our relays. We can catch up the paperwork.....

I really like the idea of one class with a 25 lb max......

 

[newbieshooter]

Here's a one day match from Feb 2020 (IntJ shot in Relay 2).

Using Traditional scoring - you can see relay 1 had the clear advantage - top 6 spots from relay 1:



Had a chance to shoot at the Deep Creek Aug Championship match which instituted relay scoring. You're shooting against everyone in your own relay/same conditions..etc.
So I went back to the Feb match above and applied relay scoring for each target. There seems to be more of an even distribution between the 2 relays. Here are the results:




interesting exercise...

 

[INTJ]

Maybe we keep the current format but change match winner scoring?

 

[newbieshooter]

Looking back at 2018 600 Yard Nationals we saw where relay 3 had some brutal conditions on day 1:

2018 600:

1. 45 shooters - 3 Relays.

• Day one: 1, 2, 3
• Day two: 3, 2, 1

2. Overall Champion (OC):

• Relay 2:
  • 4 in top 5
  • 7 in top 10
  • 10 in top 15
  • OC
• Relay 3:
  • last 6
  • 10 in bottom 15

With some time on my hands, I applied relay scoring to each of the 3 relays for each of the 12 targets. Not only did that change each of the individual category winners, but a different overall winner emerged (although another anomaly bubbled up - all category winners and match winner came from Relay 1) . Results could be a bit skewed since I'm just back testing this approach without having relays redrawn to mix up the shooters. The top 15 spots were more evenly distributed between the different relays.

Overall Champion (OC) with Relay Scoring:

Top 15:

• 6 from Relay 1
• 5 from Relay 2
• 5 from Relay 3

Bottom 15:

• 7 from Relay 1
• 4 from Relay 2
• 4 from Relay 3

Attached is the Overall Champion listed w/relay scoring and original placements for comparison.

Fun exercise....

 

[INTJ]

I suppose if were King, I would do it this way:

1. Retire and make permanent the existing NBRSA records

2. Make the weight limit for LG 22.5 lbs so F-Class guys might shoot with us in LG

3. Use relay scoring for match champion

4. Relay Format:
- Relay One: Shoot 3 LG groups
- Swap
- Relay Two: Shoot 3 HG groups then 3 LG groups
- Swap
- Relay One: Shoot 3 HG Groups

There really isn't much difference in how Ligh Class guns and Heavy Class guns shoot in NBRSA. LGs beat HGs all the time in the HG class. But maybe if an F-Class competitor could just bring their rifle and rests as is, they might shoot with us and we'd get more shooters at matches.

My relay format does give an advantage to second relay, but it adds only one more pit swap and is more fair than now. It also allows each relay to have the best conditions for one of the classes so each relay has an equal opportunity to win agg and score for one class. At present one relay usually has the best opportunity for both LG and HG.

Finally, relay scoring for match champion gives a more fair way to rank shooters.

 

[The Pumpkin]

I suppose if were King, I would do it this way:

1. Retire and make permanent the existing NBRSA records

2. Make the weight limit for LG 22.5 lbs so F-Class guys might shoot with us in LG

3. Use relay scoring for match champion

4. Relay Format:
- Relay One: Shoot 3 LG groups
- Swap
- Relay Two: Shoot 3 HG groups then 3 LG groups
- Swap
- Relay One: Shoot 3 LG Groups

There really isn't much difference in how Ligh Class guns and Heavy Class guns shoot in NBRSA. LGs beat HGs all the time in the HG class. But maybe if an F-Class competitor could just bring their rifle and rests as is, they might shoot with us and we'd get more shooters at matches.

My relay format does give an advantage to second relay, but it adds only one more pit swap and is more fair than now. It also allows each relay to have the best conditions for one of the classes so each relay has an equal opportunity to win agg and score for one class. At present one relay usually has the best opportunity for both LG and HG.

Finally, relay scoring for match champion gives a more fair way to rank shooters.

You may to edit. (Relay one didn't shoot HG.) Why do you have relay two shooting HG first?
Where are these f-class guys that want to shoot from a bench? (They don't like us) D

 

[johara1]

You may to edit. (Relay one didn't shoot HG.) Why do you have relay two shooting HG first?
Where are these f-class guys that want to shoot from a bench? (They don't like us) D

D they like marked shots and big targets.... LOL..... jim

 

[Mulligan]

We have several F-Class shooters attend our BR matches, they school us more often that you might think.
CW

 

[WAMBO]

I like the one class #25 max idea too.