NBRSA LR/BR Relay Format Poll and Discussion

[INTJ]

Since many of us have too much time on our hands right now I'd though I'd put up this poll. I would like to see more competitors at our NBRSA long range matches. Please note I am not part of the NBRSA leadership nor am I posting this poll on their behalf. I am just personally curious. I am wondering if the NBRSA relay format is an issue. NBRSA shoots 3 consecutive LG groups and then consecutive 3 HG groups per relay, then the next relay comes up. So you shoot all six of your targets in one sitting at the bench.

The pros are less time setting up and taking down your stuff, less traveling to and from the pits, and less time overall to complete the match.

The biggest con is that first relay almost always has better conditions than second relay. Group agg winners usually come out of first relay. In a two-day match it all evens out. On single day matches it makes a difference.

Thoughts?

 

[tom]

It won't always even out in 2, 3, 4 days either lol. If you shoot half the tournament at one sit down it will be a very "uncommon" weekend where you don't see the top 4,5,6 or more coming out of the same relay, and likewise with the bottom of the finishing order. Most folks don't even pay attention, but the statisticians see how blatantly obvious it is. I would guess it's common at any distance if ran that way, but definitely more obvious the longer the distance becomes.

Either way, if I feel like driving over and shooting, I will regardless. Alex likes it when I come over with one gun for both classes and ruin the barrel

Tom

 

[INTJ]

It won't always even out in 2, 3, 4 days either lol. If you shoot half the tournament at one sit down it will be a very "uncommon" weekend where you don't see the top 4,5,6 or more coming out of the same relay, and likewise with the bottom of the finishing order. Most folks don't even pay attention, but the statisticians see how blatantly obvious it is. I would guess it's common at any distance if ran that way, but definitely more obvious the longer the distance becomes.

Either way, if I feel like driving over and shooting, I will regardless. Alex likes it when I come over with one gun for both classes and ruin the barrel

Tom

Bring @Alex Wheeler with you. I'll even let him use my lathe to chamber to you a new barrel. I'll watch and take notes.....

 

[Northridge]

I would agree, this format is what keeps me away, not that any format is perfect but this one is my least favorite.

Shawn Williams

 

[Keith Faller]

Hopefully a good compromise can be found between shooting 6 targets at one time and one at a time. I know it’s been discussed a few times not too long ago.

 

[Jet]

Would like to see a format similar to IBS 600yd matches. 10 shot per target in HG would be the one area I would add to the IBS format if we were to use something like that in NBRSA.

Tom is right that we can't always overcome/make up a lousy condition relay.

Even benches on the same relay have different conditions so rotating benches is also something I would add.

Rich

 

[expiper]

well since you asked,,,,I think that the relays and benches should be rotated when going for LG to HG and on a daily basis ( 1st relay goes last on next day,,etc) and every time a shooter sits down he/she shuld shoot two targets ,,,that way we could shoot four times a day and get in eight targets (as stated above ,,,Like IBS-600) and I think the groups even in HG should be 5 shot ,,,that way you dont have to transport as much ammo on airline flights (like I have to do to get to the west coast),,,,naturally the records will have to be changed/new,,,but that was done a few yrs ago when the 600 yd targets were changed,,,,the vast majority of shooters use their light gun in heavy class,,,we need to keep the shooting "shooter friendly" to keep attendanc up,,,,
Most of the long range crowd have never shot "short" range BR and have no idea what the rotation and bench selection can do to your scores (good or bad) ,,,they just mindlessly accept the fact that the chosen few get bench one (or whereever the honey hole is) and first relay,,,,just because they got their money in early or practiced on that particular bench ??....Roger

 

[newbieshooter]

It won't always even out in 2, 3, 4 days either lol. If you shoot half the tournament at one sit down it will be a very "uncommon" weekend where you don't see the top 4,5,6 or more coming out of the same relay, and likewise with the bottom of the finishing order. Most folks don't even pay attention, but the statisticians see how blatantly obvious it is. I would guess it's common at any distance if ran that way, but definitely more obvious the longer the distance becomes.

Either way, if I feel like driving over and shooting, I will regardless. Alex likes it when I come over with one gun for both classes and ruin the barrel
Tom

+1

I only have data from the last 2 NBRSA LR Nationals (2 days for each yardage). So I thought I'd pull all the "places" and their respective relays assignments to see how the matches came out. Relay/Bench assignments are randomized draw. The relay assignments you see in the PDF are for the first day (initial relay assignment). Relay assignments are flipped on the 2nd day.

2018 600:

1. 45 shooters - 3 Relays.

• Day one: 1, 2, 3
• Day two: 3, 2, 1

2. Overall Champion (OC):

• Relay 2:
  • 4 in top 5
  • 7 in top 10
  • 10 in top 15
  • OC
• Relay 3:
  • last 6
  • 10 in bottom 15

3. LG Group:

• Relay 2: first 7
• Relay 3: last 6

4. HG Group:

• Relay 2:
  • first 6
  • 9 in top 10
• Relay 3:
  • last 7
  • 9 in bottom 10

2018 1000:

1. 39 shooters - 4 Relays.

• Day one: 1, 2, 3, 4
• Day two: 4, 3, 2, 1

2. Overall Champion:

• Relay 4:
  • top 3 spots.
  • 4 in top 10
  • 8 (out of 9 R4 shooters) finished in top 20.
• Relay 3:
  • 0 in top 10
  • highest finish was 13th.
  • 6 in bottom 10

2019 600:

40 shooters - 2 Relays.

• Day one: 1, 2
• Day two: 2, 1

2. Overall Champion (OC):

• Relay 1:
  • 6 in top 10
  • 10 in top 15
• Relay 2:
  • 7 in bottom 10
  • 10 in bottom 15
  • OC*

3. LG Group

• Relay 1: 7 in top 10
• Relay 2: 8 in bottom 10

4. HG Group

• Relay 1: 4 in top 10
• Relay 2 (?odd?):
  • 6 in top 10
  • 6 in bottom 10

2019 1000:

1. 41 shooters - 2 Relays.

• Day one: 1, 2
• Day two: 2, 1

2. Overall Champion:

• Relay 1:
  • 8 in bottom 10
  • 12 in bottom 15
• Relay 2:
  • top 4
  • 8 in top 10
  • 12 in top 15

3. LG Group

• Relay 1:
  • last 6
  • 13 in bottom 15
• Relay 2:
  • first 8
  • 13 in top 15

4. HG Group

• Relay 1:
  • last 10
  • 13 in bottom 15
• Relay 2:
  • 7 in top 10
  • 11 in top 15

 

[INTJ]

+1

I only have data for the last 2 NBRSA LR Nationals (2 days for each yardage). So I thought I'd pull all the "places" and their respective relays assignments to see how the matches came out. Relay/Bench assignments are randomized draw. The relay assignments you see in the PDF are for the first day. Relay assignments are flipped on the 2nd day.

2018 600:
1. 45 shooters - 3 Relays. First day 1, 2, 3. Second day: 3, 2, 1

2. Overall Champion:

• Relay 2:
  • 4 in top 5
  • 7 in top 10
  • 10 in top 15
  • OC
• Relay 3:
  • last 6
  • 10 in bottom 15

3. LG Group:

• Relay 2: first 7
• Relay 3: last 6

4. HG Group:

• Relay 2:
  • first 6
  • 9 in top 10
• Relay 3:
  • last 7
  • 9 in bottom 10

2018 1000:

1. 39 shooters - 4 Relays. First day: 1, 2, 3, 4. Second Day: 4, 3, 2, 1

2. Overall Champion:

• Relay 4:
  • top 3 spots.
  • 4 in top 10
  • 8 (out of 9 R4 shooters) finished in top 20.
• Relay 3:
  • highest finish was 13th.
  • 6 in bottom 10

2019 600:

40 shooters - 2 Relays. Day 1: 1, 2 Day 2: 2, 1

2. Overall Champion:

• Relay 1:
  • 6 in top 10
  • 10 in top 15
• Relay 2:
  • 7 in bottom 10
  • 10 in bottom 15
  • OC

3. LG Group

• Relay 1: 7 in top 10
• Relay 2: 8 in bottom 10

4. HG Group

• Relay 1: 4 in top 10
• Relay 2 (?):
  • 6 in top 10
  • 6 in bottom 10

2019 1000:

1. 41 shooters - 2 Relays. Day 1: 1, 2 Day 2: 2, 1

2. Overall Champion:

• Relay 1:
  • 8 in bottom 10
  • 12 in bottom 15
• Relay 2:
  • top 4
  • 8 in top 10
  • 12 in top 15

3. LG Group

• Relay 1:
  • last 6
  • 13 in bottom 15
• Relay 2:
  • first 8
  • 13 in top 15

4. HG Group

• Relay 1:
  • last 10
  • 13 in bottom 15
• Relay 2:
  • 7 in top 10
  • 11 in top 15

It looks like most of the top finishers come out of one relay. It would also be interesting to see how things work out in single day matches.

 

[Jet]

It looks like most of the top finishers come out of one relay. It would also be interesting to see how things work out in single day matches.

Just based on experience (no score sheets available) I do believe it would be even more prevalent. I may be wrong but it seems the few one day 600yard matches I've shot in Portland seem to show favoritism to certain relays

 

[tom]

Honestly I prefer one target at a time, and separate draws for each class. That said, I believe more targets is also better to help weed out both good and bad "luck of the draw". I guess it boils down to the fact that for whatever reason, all of us have been under the assumption that it NEEDS to be done in two days.... however many targets the tournament is scheduled for. I'm sure anyone who really looks at it will come to the conclusion that the more you split it up, the greater the odds of not seeing relay bias. That all said, it's nearly impossible on certain weekends to eliminate that one relay that takes everyone on it straight to the bottom.....this is the real flaw in all long range aggregate tournaments that is nearly impossible to solve.

Years ago the founders at our club seen all these things and created a relay ranking system. It also has it's own flaws, which are best combated by randomly redrawing each and every relay. Which is how we set up our 2,000 yard deal. It's similar to ibs 600, and nbrsa, in the fact that agg records can be set by attending just one match weekend. But the match winner is determined by winning against those sitting side by side on the same relay.


Tom

 

[Mulligan]

If you invited the top 4 or 5 shooters from each relay into a shoot-off, would that level it out?

In other words, shoot your contest on day 1 and shoot-off the following day with all the relay winners (top 4 or 5) on the line at once (only one relay the second day).

CW

 

[tom]

If you invited the top 4 or 5 shooters from each relay into a shoot-off, would that level it out?

In other words, shoot your contest on day 1 and shoot-off the following day with all the relay winners (top 4 or 5) on the line at once (only one relay the second day).

CW

I've played with different ideas along those lines. Here's the thing to think on and solve. We are looking to crown a 2 gun "overall" champion, along with light gun "overall", heavy "overall", plus the "group" and "score" winners as well. What category do we use in order to "advance"?

David (@Torge ) and I, have even printed out "mock matches" using different ideas. My favorite, and David did NOT agree with me was what I called "golf". You would leave the aggregate in place, and at the end of light gun target number 1, you would "flight" the "overall" leaders against each other just like a 4 round golf tournament. However many targets the match is, each new target would be the next "round". David was thinking along the lines of "tennis", were you would try to seed the event....we just couldn't figure out what would determine the qualifications for seeding.

Clay, I've had mock score sheets stapled up covering my entire shop, and I'm such a pessimist i found a flaw with EVERYTHING lol. Like I said in my first reply, if I feel like coming, I'm going to come. As long as it requires me to perform every time I sit down in order to win, I will play.

Tom

 

[INTJ]

I want to bring this up to get some more poll responses and discussion.

 

[INTJ]

Bringing this up one last time. Right now it seems a significant majority think NBRSA should change the relay format.

 

[The Pumpkin]

Bringing this up one last time. Right now it seems a significant majority think NBRSA should change the relay format.

Not an opinion just some musings.

AFAIK all NBRSA ranges have pits.
NBRSA shoots one target at a time.
It takes X amount of time to change relays.
This is lost time to the best conditions.
Changes require an agenda item.
Changes are usually discussed at LR Nationals.
Right now the Board meeting is Before the LR Nationals.
Would require another year for a change.
The first people that need to approve change are the match directors.

Are the people who want change active NBRSA LR shooters?
And last now they are thinking about another class. (Rail)

 

[INTJ]

I don't think the NBRSA board would have an issues with what the LR shooters decided. We are a small part of NBRSA and not their focus.

We have talked about doing more shoot vs pit swaps. As long as there is enough table space behind the firing line so stuff could be quickly swapped we could alternate. It's not so much about shooting in the best conditions as it is trying to be more even.

 

[bpmoss1]

Just a thought. I see few heavy guns in California, and when I do they are not the heavy guns like the ones back east (Maxi-trackers and such) but more F-Open rifles guys bring. What about maybe ditching heavy gun and shooting 4 light gun targets instead of 3. It would speed up the 2nd relay, especially with no gun changes. Also, there's often that ONE GUY that decided to wait til the last minutes of the relay hoping for that favorable change in conditions that rarely comes. It just screws second relay that much more. The majority want to get there targets shot as quick as possible. Cut light gun relay time in half at least. This would all add up to much quicker matches, longer barrel life and if light gun weight was uped to 22lbs we may pick up some F-Open guys that would like to shoot bench too. Just a thought, don't hang me.

 

[INTJ]

Just a thought. I see few heavy guns in California, and when I do they are not the heavy guns like the ones back east (Maxi-trackers and such) but more F-Open rifles guys bring. What about maybe ditching heavy gun and shooting 4 light gun targets instead of 3. It would speed up the 2nd relay, especially with no gun changes. Also, there's often that ONE GUY that decided to wait til the last minutes of the relay hoping for that favorable change in conditions that rarely comes. It just screws second relay that much more. The majority want to get there targets shot as quick as possible. Cut light gun relay time in half at least. This would all add up to much quicker matches, longer barrel life and if light gun weight was uped to 22lbs we may pick up some F-Open guys that would like to shoot bench too. Just a thought, don't hang me.

I like the idea one class, say a 22-25 lbs max. 17 lb guns routinely beat Heavy Guns anyway and the our HGs do seem to run around 22-24 lbs when they are in 6 BRA or similar. There are exceptions but they are few.

I also like the idea of four groups. Maybe two five-shot and two 10-shot?

I also like 5 minutes for record groups.

 

[bpmoss1]

I believe a 22lb limit on LG would bring F-open guys in with their rigs and as the word spread amongst them it would continue to grow, and why not they got very capable rifles. There would be alot of 7mms, which may have an edge in bad conditions which we frequently see. We've had them show up and shoot with us on a couple of occasions that I remember. They were automatically a dq in LG. They enjoyed the match and said they were going to continue only to not show back up. Why would they if they are a dq. LRBR is shrinking by what I see, and I believe it's dying in California. I'm especially worried about the bill on the table RIGHT NOW that if passed (and I believe it may) that will outlaw ALL lead ammo in Ca (not just for hunting as it is now) Period even at shooting ranges. If it passes IT'S GAME OVER.