Bradley Walker
jlow said:
I was tumbling 200-250 with 5 lbs of pins before... I am not sure what you are getting at... Sounds like dancing on the head of a pin.
Bradley Walker
Bradley Walker said:
Try 50 and see what you see...
Bradley Walker said:
Nothing complicated and like I said I am not trying to be a wise guy or trying to waste your time, just trying to figure out the weight of the tumbler when the volume of water is replace with 5lb of SS media.
The one I am using basically says it has the capacity to tumble a 15lb tumbler. This is what mine usually weights in at. So what I am trying to figure out is how much heavier your tumbler is? It is certainly not 15+5 lbs but the question is how much heavier it is?
You are basically trying to get better results but at the same time you are doing something past recommended values. Not saying that is good or bad but you obviously think it is good and I am just trying to evaluate this for myself. If you look at the comment by nhm16, he is wondering the same thing so I am not alone.
Bradley Walker
Please don't exceed any recommendations on my behalf. Obviously, I am beyond the recommended weight you keep talking about. I think the Thumbler could safely spin 50 lbs... I think 15 lbs is basically the "insurance" value from the factory, so they can protect themselves.
Use 5 lbs of pins and use smaller batches of brass. It does the same thing. My point is that most people are using too much brass to pins and the peening is coming from the brass on brass contact not from the pins. The pins are very, very gentle and work better to more the brass is buried in the pins. Cleaning the brass inside is better in smaller batches.
Use 5 lbs of pins and use smaller batches of brass. It does the same thing. My point is that most people are using too much brass to pins and the peening is coming from the brass on brass contact not from the pins. The pins are very, very gentle and work better to more the brass is buried in the pins. Cleaning the brass inside is better in smaller batches.
I am certainly not afraid to go beyond recommended weight, which by definition is what research is all about and that that was my career.
What I find is being careful and getting information from people who have “gone there†is useful, thus my questions. I understand your rationale and don’t have a problem with it, just trying to learn as much before going there. Thanks for sharing!
What I find is being careful and getting information from people who have “gone there†is useful, thus my questions. I understand your rationale and don’t have a problem with it, just trying to learn as much before going there. Thanks for sharing!
This is some info I have observed and noted when using SS pins,
I have been using these SS pins for the past 6 -8 months now, they are better than sliced bread, I will never go back to walnut hulls, rice hulls etc again, no DUST,etc.
I am using a 70's vintage Thumblers Model B, hot water, Lemi shine, Dawn Dish soap, and run for about 2-4hrs, on real dirty brass, and about a hour on already cleaned brass and use an old food dryer to dry brass on over night, during the winter time.
I have a 3 gal bucket/pail that has 1/8" Hardware cloth/screen pop riveted to the cutout bottom which fits inside of a 5 gallon bucket, I dump the dirty water, SS pins, cleaned brass inside the 3gal pail, agitate while rinsing with water inside the 5 gal bucket.
All the SS pins are collected inside the 5 gal bucket during the rinse, I drain off 95% of the very dirty water and then place my HD magnet on top of the SS pins, and finish draining off the rest of the water.
I have a 4" HD speaker magnet, which is placed inside a cottage cheese plastic bucket to drop into the water after 95% of the water is drained off, this magnet will hold onto the pins, so you don't lose any while rinsing, while I finish draining off the rest of the water.
The SS pins are then dumped into the tumbler barrel, magnet will collect any remaining pins, transfer the HD magnet to thumber barrel and take magnet out of plactic tub and they will fall inside barrel, ready for the next cycle.
I noticed some brass and SS specks in the water while rinising the brass, and I think I have traced it down to the spec's of brass coming from around the primer pocket flash holes and stuck to the inside of the cases.
I did a batch without doing anything to them (NEW BRASS, never fired/prepped) and had a lot "Brass colored" specs, put a batch of well used brass only cleaned with W Hulls prior, and prepped my usual way (BR style) and the color was there, but only slightly.
Reran this same batch of (W Hulls) and the color was barely there. I kinda think that these SS pins do a thougher cleaning and it is knocking loose these burrs left around the inside of the case/flash hole area etc.
I have sectioned and measured everything (before/after) and can NOT find any difference inside or out side, some of this color was from the SS pins, I think, where they were chopped off, as a magnet would collect some of it.
If you want REAL agressive action, reduce your water level to about half a barrel, I cleaned a bunch of the Russian STEEL cases this way, made them look like they were hand buffed matt finish, (curious to see the results), left them out over night to dry and they looked like Irish Setter Pups, just from the over nite moisture in the air.
I have used these SS pins to remove the varnish finish off my 5.7 OEM cases that are formed into 17 Kit Fox cases, does a real good job.
Had a bunch of rusty sockets, water leaked into bed tool box in the PU, use the SS pins to clean up real nice, then boiled them on the stove in Hot water, remove and let dry for a minute and used WD-40 coating, can't tell they were even rusty.
I forgot one other thing NOT TO DO, don't let the cleaned brass set overnite, as you WON'T like the out come.
Rinse/clean/dry as soon as you turn off the thumbler, the brass shines and looks better.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, the test is done!
I was curious to see if the SS pins could/would damage cases/brass.
So I gathered up a bunch of brass, in the following sizes, 38ACP, 38SPCL, 357Mag, 357Sig, 9mm, 380ACP, 40SW, 308, 30/06 calibers, this is all the sizes I had on hand, for this test. This was old brass,from the 60's, to present day 2013yr brass, factory once fired and reloaded lots of brass, all major makes/brands, range pick ups etc, punched the primers out, nothing more done to the brass, the total amount of this mixed brass was 300+ rds.
Filled the Model B/15# thumbler w/(1/2gallon) normally use 1 gal of Hot 2Ho, shot of Dawn and the required Lemi-Shine.
Note: by using 1/2 gal of water,this is the an very agressive cleaning action, as compared to a full 1 gallon load),which has a more cushioning effect of the water for the cases, etc.
Set up the thumbler and turned it ON, It ran for 7 days straight, 24hrs p/day,+ 12 extra hours, except for a belt break,that happened while I was checking the progress, which took less than a minute to replace. I dumped the VERY FILTHY water, normal amount of spec's in the water, no spec's of SS was collected via the magnet,still had very minor soap bubles left, rinsed/dried the cases in the normal manner,
I set up 7 cases as a control batch, took 40SW and inserted a 9mm case (old and new brass) inside,and lightly crimped the 40 case, as to retain the 9mm case inside the 40SW case. This was used to see the difference when removed, should show any difference of before & after in the outside finish, and condition of the cases before they went into the tumbler.
Note:
This is the FIRST time I have EVER had the SS pins stick in any flash hole, in ANY of the brass I have cleaned, so far. I found 10-15 9mm cases & 1-38 SPCL case with two pins stuck in each flash hole, these were set aside for closer inspection, to possibly discover, WHY.
My thumbler turns at 20 rev's p/minute, so I'll let you figure out HOW many rev's were made by this brass, It's a bunch!!!!!!! RIGHT? There were pictures taken from before and after this test,of all the brass, and this includes close ups (to the best of my ability) of the test cases, to show the difference etc.
More followup information about the results, of extended thumbling with SS pins,
On the 9mm/38Spcl cases that had stuck SS pins in the flash holes, I found the following information.
All of these SS pins had an "L" shaped little hook on the ends from where they were chopped/sheared off during the making of these pins. It appears that while thumbling around, a pin would enter from one side of the flash hole and another pin would enter from the other side and they would wedge/stick inside the flash holes.
The average flash hole diameters measured were:
.072"=380 cases
.078"=9mm cases
.078"=38SPCL cases
.072"=357 Sig cases
.074"=38 Super cases
.076"=357 Mag cases
.074"=40SW cases
.074"=30/06 cases
To remove these pins, I had to push one pin back out of the hole and then the other would fall free, I could not both pins to push out of the hole at the same time, as they would stick/hang up on the little "L" shaped ends and would not come loose. (see picture).
On the 40SW/9mm case combos, that were made as test samples, after pulling apart these cases, in every sample of cases, there were SS pins inside the 40SW case, they varied in amount of 2-4 pins (base inserted first)to 6-10 pins (9mm case mouth inserted first), and one test sample that had a primered 9MM case head inserted inside, there were 3 SS pins inside, that had entered from the 40SW primer hole.
I had weighed all the 30/06 cases before running the test and then reweighed these same cases after the test, and NO DIFFERENCES in weights could be found using the electronic scales. I figured that being the heaviest brass (in weight) that these should show any differences as compared to the lighter cases, the 308 case was resized from an 30/06 case and then trimmed to standard length, and no weight difference could be measured.
I have come to this conclusion, IMHO, that these SS pins WILL NOT DAMAGE the case/brass, at least as found in this test, I would believe that after 180+ straight hours of thumbling, well over 201600 rev's, some evidence would have shown up.
I have been retaking some of the pictures to better show the results, Hopefully, as picture taking is NOT in my bag of expertise, at least with the little Olympus FE-110 camera I use.
Note: All of this brass was nickle plated.
Tia,
Don
I have been using these SS pins for the past 6 -8 months now, they are better than sliced bread, I will never go back to walnut hulls, rice hulls etc again, no DUST,etc.
I am using a 70's vintage Thumblers Model B, hot water, Lemi shine, Dawn Dish soap, and run for about 2-4hrs, on real dirty brass, and about a hour on already cleaned brass and use an old food dryer to dry brass on over night, during the winter time.
I have a 3 gal bucket/pail that has 1/8" Hardware cloth/screen pop riveted to the cutout bottom which fits inside of a 5 gallon bucket, I dump the dirty water, SS pins, cleaned brass inside the 3gal pail, agitate while rinsing with water inside the 5 gal bucket.
All the SS pins are collected inside the 5 gal bucket during the rinse, I drain off 95% of the very dirty water and then place my HD magnet on top of the SS pins, and finish draining off the rest of the water.
I have a 4" HD speaker magnet, which is placed inside a cottage cheese plastic bucket to drop into the water after 95% of the water is drained off, this magnet will hold onto the pins, so you don't lose any while rinsing, while I finish draining off the rest of the water.
The SS pins are then dumped into the tumbler barrel, magnet will collect any remaining pins, transfer the HD magnet to thumber barrel and take magnet out of plactic tub and they will fall inside barrel, ready for the next cycle.
I noticed some brass and SS specks in the water while rinising the brass, and I think I have traced it down to the spec's of brass coming from around the primer pocket flash holes and stuck to the inside of the cases.
I did a batch without doing anything to them (NEW BRASS, never fired/prepped) and had a lot "Brass colored" specs, put a batch of well used brass only cleaned with W Hulls prior, and prepped my usual way (BR style) and the color was there, but only slightly.
Reran this same batch of (W Hulls) and the color was barely there. I kinda think that these SS pins do a thougher cleaning and it is knocking loose these burrs left around the inside of the case/flash hole area etc.
I have sectioned and measured everything (before/after) and can NOT find any difference inside or out side, some of this color was from the SS pins, I think, where they were chopped off, as a magnet would collect some of it.
If you want REAL agressive action, reduce your water level to about half a barrel, I cleaned a bunch of the Russian STEEL cases this way, made them look like they were hand buffed matt finish, (curious to see the results), left them out over night to dry and they looked like Irish Setter Pups, just from the over nite moisture in the air.
I have used these SS pins to remove the varnish finish off my 5.7 OEM cases that are formed into 17 Kit Fox cases, does a real good job.
Had a bunch of rusty sockets, water leaked into bed tool box in the PU, use the SS pins to clean up real nice, then boiled them on the stove in Hot water, remove and let dry for a minute and used WD-40 coating, can't tell they were even rusty.
I forgot one other thing NOT TO DO, don't let the cleaned brass set overnite, as you WON'T like the out come.
Rinse/clean/dry as soon as you turn off the thumbler, the brass shines and looks better.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Well, the test is done!
I was curious to see if the SS pins could/would damage cases/brass.
So I gathered up a bunch of brass, in the following sizes, 38ACP, 38SPCL, 357Mag, 357Sig, 9mm, 380ACP, 40SW, 308, 30/06 calibers, this is all the sizes I had on hand, for this test. This was old brass,from the 60's, to present day 2013yr brass, factory once fired and reloaded lots of brass, all major makes/brands, range pick ups etc, punched the primers out, nothing more done to the brass, the total amount of this mixed brass was 300+ rds.
Filled the Model B/15# thumbler w/(1/2gallon) normally use 1 gal of Hot 2Ho, shot of Dawn and the required Lemi-Shine.
Note: by using 1/2 gal of water,this is the an very agressive cleaning action, as compared to a full 1 gallon load),which has a more cushioning effect of the water for the cases, etc.
Set up the thumbler and turned it ON, It ran for 7 days straight, 24hrs p/day,+ 12 extra hours, except for a belt break,that happened while I was checking the progress, which took less than a minute to replace. I dumped the VERY FILTHY water, normal amount of spec's in the water, no spec's of SS was collected via the magnet,still had very minor soap bubles left, rinsed/dried the cases in the normal manner,
I set up 7 cases as a control batch, took 40SW and inserted a 9mm case (old and new brass) inside,and lightly crimped the 40 case, as to retain the 9mm case inside the 40SW case. This was used to see the difference when removed, should show any difference of before & after in the outside finish, and condition of the cases before they went into the tumbler.
Note:
This is the FIRST time I have EVER had the SS pins stick in any flash hole, in ANY of the brass I have cleaned, so far. I found 10-15 9mm cases & 1-38 SPCL case with two pins stuck in each flash hole, these were set aside for closer inspection, to possibly discover, WHY.
My thumbler turns at 20 rev's p/minute, so I'll let you figure out HOW many rev's were made by this brass, It's a bunch!!!!!!! RIGHT? There were pictures taken from before and after this test,of all the brass, and this includes close ups (to the best of my ability) of the test cases, to show the difference etc.
More followup information about the results, of extended thumbling with SS pins,
On the 9mm/38Spcl cases that had stuck SS pins in the flash holes, I found the following information.
All of these SS pins had an "L" shaped little hook on the ends from where they were chopped/sheared off during the making of these pins. It appears that while thumbling around, a pin would enter from one side of the flash hole and another pin would enter from the other side and they would wedge/stick inside the flash holes.
The average flash hole diameters measured were:
.072"=380 cases
.078"=9mm cases
.078"=38SPCL cases
.072"=357 Sig cases
.074"=38 Super cases
.076"=357 Mag cases
.074"=40SW cases
.074"=30/06 cases
To remove these pins, I had to push one pin back out of the hole and then the other would fall free, I could not both pins to push out of the hole at the same time, as they would stick/hang up on the little "L" shaped ends and would not come loose. (see picture).
On the 40SW/9mm case combos, that were made as test samples, after pulling apart these cases, in every sample of cases, there were SS pins inside the 40SW case, they varied in amount of 2-4 pins (base inserted first)to 6-10 pins (9mm case mouth inserted first), and one test sample that had a primered 9MM case head inserted inside, there were 3 SS pins inside, that had entered from the 40SW primer hole.
I had weighed all the 30/06 cases before running the test and then reweighed these same cases after the test, and NO DIFFERENCES in weights could be found using the electronic scales. I figured that being the heaviest brass (in weight) that these should show any differences as compared to the lighter cases, the 308 case was resized from an 30/06 case and then trimmed to standard length, and no weight difference could be measured.
I have come to this conclusion, IMHO, that these SS pins WILL NOT DAMAGE the case/brass, at least as found in this test, I would believe that after 180+ straight hours of thumbling, well over 201600 rev's, some evidence would have shown up.
I have been retaking some of the pictures to better show the results, Hopefully, as picture taking is NOT in my bag of expertise, at least with the little Olympus FE-110 camera I use.
Note: All of this brass was nickle plated.
Tia,
Don
Nvreloader,
Thanks for your input, good info but you have to understand that I too am not a new user of the SS media. In fact, I have used mine since 2010 and so gone through a lot of use – time flies right?
The specific damage that people here are concerned about is preening which is the peeling back of the lip of the neck of bottleneck rifle brass (only). All other use appears to be problem free. The pin the in flash hole is real but that just means you have to inspect all your brass (rifle and pistol) before you reload which is in general a good idea anyway.
Thanks for your input, good info but you have to understand that I too am not a new user of the SS media. In fact, I have used mine since 2010 and so gone through a lot of use – time flies right?
The specific damage that people here are concerned about is preening which is the peeling back of the lip of the neck of bottleneck rifle brass (only). All other use appears to be problem free. The pin the in flash hole is real but that just means you have to inspect all your brass (rifle and pistol) before you reload which is in general a good idea anyway.
Bradley Walker
jlow said:
I am going to do a test. I am going to put like 10 cases in the Thumbler and tumble them overnight and see that the case mouths look like...
Jlow,
I can check and see if there was any of this peening to the case mouths, as compared to non thumbled brass, there was only 10 rds of 06 brass and 1-308 and about 25+ of the 357 Sig bottleneck cases used, and they are still as they come from the thumbler.
Is there a reason why only bottle necked cases show this problem as compared to any other type of case?
I always check my brass for any problems, ie cracked/split necks etc before reloading and this is how I found the SS pins in the flash holes etc.
I have several different lots of rifle cases that have been SS pin cleaned/thumbled and will also check them, in all calibers from 17 thru 30 calibers.
I can check and see if there was any of this peening to the case mouths, as compared to non thumbled brass, there was only 10 rds of 06 brass and 1-308 and about 25+ of the 357 Sig bottleneck cases used, and they are still as they come from the thumbler.
Is there a reason why only bottle necked cases show this problem as compared to any other type of case?
I always check my brass for any problems, ie cracked/split necks etc before reloading and this is how I found the SS pins in the flash holes etc.
I have several different lots of rifle cases that have been SS pin cleaned/thumbled and will also check them, in all calibers from 17 thru 30 calibers.
jlow said:
It’s a good question, I think the reason is the way the bottle neck brass is made they are designed to have different softness as you go from the top of the neck to the base and this makes the neck much more susceptible to preening. Necks are soft to give a specific degree of neck tension and to prevent splitting. The body and head is hard to allow it to hold the pressure and to bounce back to release the case after firing. This BTW is nothing new and has been reported by many people that use SS-media including myself.
bigedp51
Don't over think the 15 pound rated capacity, I had the same basic tumbler in the 70, and 80s for tumbling rocks when my kids were in the Scouts. I then gave it to my brother-in-law for his kids to tumble rocks. And the tumbler would run for weeks on end just to polish rocks.
You have an electric motor and a designed temp for running continuously, there is a difference between running the polisher on your back porch in Phoenix during a August heat wave and running on a unheated garage floor in January.
15 pounds is a ball park figure and your wife overloads the washer and dryer all the time, and remember oiling the bearing will reduce the load and help it stay cool.
I'm running my tumbler 3/4 full of .223/5.56 brass and five pounds of pins and the motor is normal temp. If your that paranoid get a cheap indoor/out door thermometer and tape one prob to the motor and the other for ambient temp and monitor your motor temperature.
"The Model B is powered by a quality motor with overload protection"
You have an electric motor and a designed temp for running continuously, there is a difference between running the polisher on your back porch in Phoenix during a August heat wave and running on a unheated garage floor in January.
15 pounds is a ball park figure and your wife overloads the washer and dryer all the time, and remember oiling the bearing will reduce the load and help it stay cool.
I'm running my tumbler 3/4 full of .223/5.56 brass and five pounds of pins and the motor is normal temp. If your that paranoid get a cheap indoor/out door thermometer and tape one prob to the motor and the other for ambient temp and monitor your motor temperature.
"The Model B is powered by a quality motor with overload protection"
As with most things mechanical, the weak link is where it will fail. I personally don’t think the tumbler itself or the motor would be affected by a few extra pounds. The weak link IMHO would be the belt. The belt runs on friction and an over capacity tumbler would most likely cause the belt to stretch and/or slip and that would be the most likely trouble point. Won’t know until you try it and figure out the limits.
With all due respect (which I am not even getting - LOL!) but I don’t understand why people always think you are paranoid when you do things carefully when you know you are over specs. I just hope you don’t do reloading with the same mentality. :
With all due respect (which I am not even getting - LOL!) but I don’t understand why people always think you are paranoid when you do things carefully when you know you are over specs. I just hope you don’t do reloading with the same mentality. :
bigedp51
jlow said:I just hope you don’t do reloading with the same mentality. :
Actually I've been reloading for over 45 years and I'm a retired electrician and have overhauled a few motors in my day, and you are being an anus orifice with a smart mouth.
No where in my posting did I mention any names or single anyone out, its an electric motor with overload protection. It's max amp draw will be at startup and after running one for over ten years tumbling rocks the first problem your going to have is a broken belt due to age.
bigedp51
jlow said:
Yes I have a problem and its you and your smart mouth, and you already talked to me the wrong way.
And you can have a rotten day
With all do respect to both parties don't ruin this thread for anyone. I agree that the comparison between overloading a thermally protected motor and unsafe reloading practices is extreme and doesn't even compare in risk. Kind of like taking two steps at once going up stairs and comparing that to driving a car 140mph down the interstate (twice the steps/twice the speed limit), one is way more likely to get you killed. I work A LOT with motors and can also confirm that the thumbler motor is a good design and you will either not get the drum to turn or break the belt before you damage the motor. The friction between the drum to the drive rollers and then from the rollers to the belt will fail first if overloaded to much, unless you go messing with those two systems first. Even if you did make it chain driven and add friction tape to fix those weak links you would simply run the risk of overheating the motor which would do little harm as it is thermally protected. With all of that being said it is your equipment and you should treat it however you feel best. If the 15lb limit is important to you then stick to it. If someone else wants to fill it with lead and give her a go the so be it. Just dont B*tch for warranty if your an idiot and break something. And lets try to keep the discussion civil so I can learn more about what people have tried and works or doesn't work.
bigedp51
It's a rock tumbler, you would fill it 1/2 to 3/4 full with rocks, abrasive compounds and anything from water to corn syrup and let it run for weeks on end. I had one for ten years and the only thing that happened was a pulley slipped out of alignment and the belt wore off some rubber on the side of the belt. The original belt was replaced by my brother-in-law when he got it after I had it.
The pins are the abrasive material and the quality of these pins will vary, meaning how sharp the ends are when they are cut. The soap helps clean and holds the dirt in suspension. The weight of the load depends on if your tumbling in the Sahara desert, the North Pole and your motor temperature.
We are not dealing with the particle accelerator at Bern Switzerland, its a friggin ROCK TUMBLER and the company figured a new way to sell more tumblers to reloaders. And jlow was out of line with his comments, end of story.
The pins are the abrasive material and the quality of these pins will vary, meaning how sharp the ends are when they are cut. The soap helps clean and holds the dirt in suspension. The weight of the load depends on if your tumbling in the Sahara desert, the North Pole and your motor temperature.
We are not dealing with the particle accelerator at Bern Switzerland, its a friggin ROCK TUMBLER and the company figured a new way to sell more tumblers to reloaders. And jlow was out of line with his comments, end of story.
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