My Stainless Steel Media Thumbler Case cleaning findings

[jlow]

Wvuredneck09

I thank you for you input but before you start taking sides, check my posts.

In none of them did I mention I was worried about the motor, in fact, if you look at Reply #54, I specifically mentioned that “I personally don’t think the tumbler itself or the motor would be affect by a few extra pounds”. Your conclusion that the “belt will fail first” in fact was the same as mine.

What I have a problem with is when I ask people who is working on something that is out of spec (Bradley) and try to figure out what works and does not work but not criticizing, and another person comes on board and implies that this is being "paranoid" (see reply #54) or we are dealing with “the particle accelerator at Bern” (reply #59), then I do have a problem with that.

I also have problems with people who are obviously >45 years but acting like they are <5 years old, throwing rude 4 letter words and insults. This is a problem and I wonder if this is a social media website or a technical bulletin board?

 

[wvuredneck09]

Didn't mean to pick a side just stating my opinion on the issue and the possible issues involved. Was only trying to be constructive.

 

[jlow]

Not a problem - you are fine. Just want to keep the recod straight!

 

[bigedp51]

As with most things mechanical, the weak link is where it will fail. I personally don’t think the tumbler itself or the motor would be affected by a few extra pounds. The weak link IMHO would be the belt. The belt runs on friction and an over capacity tumbler would most likely cause the belt to stretch and/or slip and that would be the most likely trouble point. Won’t know until you try it and figure out the limits.

With all due respect (which I am not even getting - LOL!) but I don’t understand why people always think you are paranoid when you do things carefully when you know you are over specs. I just hope you don’t do reloading with the same mentality. :

I also have problems with people who are obviously >45 years but acting like they are <5 years old, throwing rude 4 letter words and insults. This is a problem and I wonder if this is a social media website or a technical bulletin board?
:

There you go again acting like an anus orifice "AGAIN" and claiming your innocents. And its an open gun forum and it can be read world wide, if you want to be a smart a$$ then sign on to facebook.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I think there have been HUGE advances in the discussion of SS media cleaning, here and elsewhere. I know my learning curve was logrithmic. Lots of people have submitted some very good data and findings. Really got me thinking.

My goal has been to be able to clean brass to two levels.

1. Clean range brass for processing- This is when I load up the unit with a lot of cases. I never really tumble long enough to damage the brass. The cases get very clean inside and out... especially compared to walnut or corn tumbling.

2. Clean brass to "like new"- this includes the primer pocket being completely clean. That lead or whatever it is stubborn...

That's why I started playing with the pin ratio. The case mouth peening is real (although I am making 223 from pulled LC 223 right now and every moth is peened... yes that's right... they clean after trimming...) I am convinced the damage comes from the case on case collisions, not the pins at all...

I promise I will do some work and post the results.

Yes, I think the Thumbler was made for rocks, and we use it no where near its design capacity. The rolling force is a very small compared to the weight anyway. Do the calc...

 

[Bradley Walker]

Hey you guys are going to get the Forum Boss over here and suspend me again. He loves doing that. I feel like one of the Duke boys and he's Rosco or something... hahaha

That's a joke btw.

ha
ha

 

[jlow]

Will try not to get you suspended again if you promise to do the test! LOL! 8)

As for capacity, you are certainly right that the tumbler was made for polishing rocks but the 15lb capacity was actually for that application and only carried over for brass tumbling. You can see it here:

http://www.thumlerstumbler.com/rotary.html

As mentioned earlier, not real worried about the hardware like the drum and the motor, mostly wondering if it would shorten the belts life. Even that is not a huge concern as long as there is some reasonable life i.e. not having to change it everytime.

 

[Bradley Walker]

Will try not to get you suspended again if you promise to do the test! LOL! 8)

As for capacity, you are certainly right that the tumbler was made for polishing rocks but the 15lb capacity was actually for that application and only carried over for brass tumbling. You can see it here:

http://www.thumlerstumbler.com/rotary.html

As mentioned earlier, not real worried about the hardware like the drum and the motor, mostly wondering if it would shorten the belts life. Even that is not a huge concern as long as there is some reasonable life i.e. not having to change it everytime.

What is the goal? I listed mine. I do like to be able to do large batches, but I were worried about peening I would keep the batches small with the standard 5 lbs of pins.

I think people have tried to do both... they want huge batches to be like new clean including the primer pocket... I think this is mistake. I believe this is where the long run times are coming from...

Again... Do the rolling resistance... The motor is 1/30th HP... I think you will find that after start up the rolling resistance is very small. I always help the drum start rolling. Startup is typically something like 10 times the force of the steady state HP for conveyor applications (I design conveyors). You can see the startup draw on VFD motors... Once the thing is up to speed it uses very low HP.

 

[jlow]

I am with you in terms of doing small batches. I have tried the ultrasonic cleaner and have not had super good luck with that even with small batches, but things are new there for me and I need to find perhaps a better cleaning solution.

For me, if I can get the SS media to work in a way that does not damage my precision brass, doing small batches is a small price to pay. I agree that the problem is most likely the brass hitting each other. Certainly the brass vs. brass is much bigger hit than say brass against media which weights almost nothing in a relative standpoint - so that makes sense. I am thinking your idea of using smaller number of brass and more media is the way to go. This should not only reduce brass to brass collision but also the increase number of pins will soften and serve as a cushion to further reduce brass to brass collision.

In terms of the roll resistance, I have had a little bit of problem getting the drum rolling when I have put too much brass or water in but as you say, the inertia is the biggest enemy. It does roll well once it gets going.

Here is what I don’t know right now – one is how much reduction in preening there is with say a 10lb SS media/small brass number, and how that affects the life of the belts. Slight concern about the motor even though I know in the short term it won’t burn out since as other have said it has overload protection. It’s a bit like if I have a 20 amp line in my house and I plug something in that draws enough current from it to occasionally trip the breaker, does that mean that I will never damage the appliance, overheat the line, or damage the breaker? I don’t know the answer to this but you can understand the slight concern?

I think your test results as you describe in Reply#49 perhaps with my suggestion in Reply#50 will move me into action so that I will purchase the added pins and give it a try myself. Hope this helps to clarify my thoughst.

 

[Nvreloader]

I have just checked the following brass/calibers and have not found any sign of the preening that is being talked/concerned with,

17 Hornet/wildcats, 5 different sizes from .600" to 1.400" long case length, 22 Hornet/wildcats in 5 different sizes, case mouth thickness run in the .008/.010" range, 221,222,223, 22-250, 243/6 Ugaldes,257 cals,7mm/30 calibers all in numerous sizes/lengths.

All have been cleaned using the SS pin formula/method that I posted and all the loads thumbled had the maximum amount of brass I could put inside this thumbler, along with the 1 gallon of water, soap, Lemishine + SS pins.

I am not really sure what this preening looks like, but I have found nothing that would be a cause for concern,(that I am aware of), and this is using a 20x power glasses to check the neck area.

YMMV,

Tia,
Don

 

[jlow]

It’s pretty easy to find preening when it is present. Put your finger on the neck of the brass and with your finger nail pressing on the surface of the neck move your finger until it “falls off” the mouth of the case. If you have preening, your finger nail will catch on that slight ledge before it “falls off” the case. Again, this is partially dependent on the neck being a certain degree of softness. Case hardened brass i.e. that has been fired many times but not annealed might be more resistant to preening, but of course there are other problems associated with that.

 

[Bradley Walker]

I have had it so bad on my 6Br cases it wouldn't let the bullet seat.

That was back when I was doing long cycles with lots of brass. Those cases had a VLD inside ream so the mouths were very thin. I think it is far less evident on say LC cases that are cut at a 90 in trim and never really champferred.

It like makes the mouth look like a trumpet or flared.

 

[Bradley Walker]

In terms of the roll resistance, I have had a little bit of problem getting the drum rolling when I have put too much brass or water in but as you say, the inertia is the biggest enemy. It does roll well once it gets going.

Right. That is normal.

If you want save your belt manually help the drum start no matter the load.

When I raced BMX everyone broke chains in the gate...

 

[jlow]

I have had it so bad on my 6Br cases it wouldn't let the bullet seat.

That was back when I was doing long cycles with lots of brass. Those cases had a VLD inside ream so the mouths were very thin. I think it is far less evident on say LC cases that are cut at a 90 in trim and never really champferred.

It like makes the mouth look like a trumpet or flared.

Right VLD chamfering - good thought! That is how my were chamfered.....

 

[amlevin]

I have used the SS media for a couple of years now and find peening to be an issue when I get the case to media ratio too high.

That said, I prefer to clean my cases prior to all other processing except de-priming. For high volume runs on 9mm or .223 I run the cases through an old progressive press set up with only a universal de-priming die. The unprimed cases are then cleaned. The .223 cases are then lubed with One-Shot and sent through my 650 with a Rapid trim that takes care of any "peening".

For .308 or 30/06 the cases are trimmed and neck sized. Any lube used is wiped off so no need to re-clean/polish.

For those that wonder about their Thumbler's drum wieght using twice the pin weight, just put it on the bathroom scale. More more pins will displace water. Maybe not the full 5# but at least a pound or two considering that water weighs just over 8#/gallon.

I'm just "struggling" along with an old RCBS Sidewinder that I bought back around 1981 or so. Still the original drum, motor, and belt. I never weigh anything, just toss in enough cases to fill the drum half way, the pins, and 1/2 gallon of water with soap and Lemi-Shine. Works great. Don't spend much time on analysis of the process, just the results.

 

[Nvreloader]

Ok Guys,
I stepped in it again,
I have been using the wrong word, "PREENING", which means to smooth/straighten etc.
The correct word in "PEENING", which means form/round over etc.
Now that I am on the same page, in the "peening" area, I did find some case that had this slight lip, about 6-10 cases out of the 100+ I checked, that had been SS cleaned.

Here is the big ????? I also found numerous cases that had peening, that were OEM case never fired or reloaded and had NEVER be cleaned via the SS method, all of this brass was regular brass, not nickle plated.

I don't know what to think, now.

This is the way I load/use my thumbler, Model "B",
the SS pins are left in the bottom, I fill the barrel with brass, (I don't count or weight the amounts), I add 1 gallon of hot water, Lemi-shine and a dash of Dawn soap, then top off the brass level untill it is about 1/2" to 3/4" below the level of the barrel top, install the liner/lid and turn it on to run.

I was having problems with some of the belts that would break or wear out, very quickly it seemed like, these were the thin type 1/4" in size, they did not seem to last very long.

I got some HD thick type belts , over 5/16" in size, from the vacum repair place and I have never had any more problems, except some of the sizes needed to be adjusted via the sliding adjustment bracket I made for the motor mount.

YMMV,

Tia,
Don

 

[amlevin]

I also found numerous cases that had peening, that were OEM case never fired or reloaded and had NEVER be cleaned via the SS method, all of this brass was regular brass, not nickle plated.

Ahhemm! How do you think the OE mfr's get their cases nice and clean/shiny? Even if they don't get "peened" in the cleaning process, they get a few nicks and dings in the handling process while being packaged.

Ever opened up a new box of Lapua brass? Even the premium stuff is banged up.

 

[Nvreloader]

Amlevin,
No, I NEVER have, I can barely afford to do what I do now, That Lapua Brass is for the other side of the tracks, that I don't live ON. Way too expensive for this OF. ;D, one of these days my ship will come in, I hope....... Lately it's has been getting sunk so far out to sea, I never see it. :'(

I have to use the pick me ups and hand me down's and a little store bought on rare occasions etc.
I am thinking that I may have went of the deep end when I decided to build my SP pistol in 284 caliber, Damn, that stuff get expensive and hard to find. I Kinda like to use cases that can be formed from good old US mil brass etc.

Tia,
Don

Ever opened up a new box of Lapua brass? Even the premium stuff is banged up.

 

[jlow]

Yip, I know there are those who don’t like the analytical approach (been there and done that here ;D) but some of us do – it’s a free country right? So hear me out.

But before I start, just because I like to understand what happens when I make a big change in something I do, it does not mean that I am one of those crazy guys who cannot relax and do things in an approximate fashion like most “normal” people. If case someone think that I use a microbalance to weight my drum when I use SS-media, LOL!, surprise, I don’t, I just put in the 5lb SS-media, big heapful of brass somewhere close to what it should be, fill it up with water to somewhere close to 1 inch below the top, add a shake of Lemishine and Dawn and I am GTG. Works well every time. Don't look too shocked! It just make sense to do it this way...

However, changing 5lb of SS media to 10lb is not quite like putting in 250 223 cases vs. 180 (recommended amount). Just to give you an idea of how different. I took the trouble to calculate it out. So, if one use the approximate density of SS which is 7.83grams/mL volume and compare that to water, which is 1g/mL, you will quickly realize that SS is 7.83x more dense than water. What does this mean? It is simple, what this means is the 5lb of SS media will displace only 290mL of water but the actually added weight to the drum would be like adding an extra 2 liter (or half a gallon) of water to the drum. Now obviously the drum would not hold another ½ gallon but you can see it is not a slight amount in terms of weight.

Not convinced? OK, let’s look at it from a number you guys are more familiar with which is how many pieces of brass this would be? 5lb of additional SS media would be equivalent to adding another 500 pieces of 223 brass on top of the recommended 200 pieces. So we are now adding 700 pieces of brass instead of 200– does that sound like a little more?

 

[bigedp51]

You can never solve a problem on the level on which it was created.

Albert Einstein