Muzzle break for F-Class?
- Thread starter white121
- Start date
They are not legal....it's in the NRA Rule Book, Rule 3.16.1
You can find it at:
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w03.pdf
and the complete index:
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-index.pdf
F-Class is an extention of High Power so you need to know those Rules.
You can find it at:
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-w03.pdf
and the complete index:
http://www.nrahq.org/compete/RuleBooks/HPR/hpr-index.pdf
F-Class is an extention of High Power so you need to know those Rules.
Mike's right, no muzzle brakes allowed at NRA matches. Suggest you follow his advice and read through all the rules for High Power and F-Class before you build your rifle.
It is with good reason that brakes are not allowed, as the firing points are only 6 feet wide, so the other shooters are close to you. Plus your scorers are close behind as well. I've seen a muzzle brake on a .308 blow a good-sized coffee cup off a table. Imagine the blast from a .300 Magnum or .338 Lapua.
It is with good reason that brakes are not allowed, as the firing points are only 6 feet wide, so the other shooters are close to you. Plus your scorers are close behind as well. I've seen a muzzle brake on a .308 blow a good-sized coffee cup off a table. Imagine the blast from a .300 Magnum or .338 Lapua.
js223 said:
Yes, you don't want to blow out the shooter next to you. I was at the range a couple of days ago, and a guy next to me was testing loads for 338L magnum in a Sako Tactical Rifle with a muzzle brake. And yes the side blast was horrific. I would wait until he finished his string before I fired mine. Just something to be aware of, and to be courteous to your fellow shooters. IMHO
PHINPAD said:
I'll guess at it...........there was never a Noise problem in the
birth of this great sport of High Power Rifle Competiton here in the USA.
Other than that some states don't allow ownership.
Mike is right on that one ........ some countries too. A ban at ICFRA level puts everybody on a level playing field. Sound moderators are widely used here in the UK for game and especially pest shooting as much rabbit and fox clearance is done at night using spotlamps. We also see more than a few on the ranges and some users want them to be NRA-legal (even compulsory in the case of some extreme fans).
We'll probably see increased range use in the UK because many ranges are close to residential properties and noise is a big issue - range owners and shooters have no legal rights. If you upset somebody and the local authority environmental inspectors agree, then that's it, you're legally a 'statutory nuisance' and can be closed down even if the range predates the houses and complaining residents by 100 years! Only the military are exempt.
As well as reducing noise, moderators reduce recoil, which is why some target shooters use them. They're not all good news however. Problems are:
weight, an issue in weight restricted disiplines.
effect on barrel harmonics - another thing to worry about or go wrong.
heat and mirage. They get very hot indeed and produce a lot of mirage in just the wrong place for a high-power target scope.
increased expense - good ones aren't cheap and size / cost goes up with calibre / the amount of powder burned.
life and workload - they are another thing to dismantle and clean and don't last forever. That's not a issue on a hunting rifle firing modest amounts of ammo, but both issues affect target shooters.
So, although we have them here on the ranges, we don't have over many, and a lot of the shooters who do use them are shooting all-purpose rifles used on paper and game.
Laurie,
York, England
PHINPAD said:
That's funny that the Police would be happy for you to have a device that muffles the sound of a gunshot....on this side of the pond in our remote living location they would be used at night to take game illegally........which is another reason you can't just buy one at Wal Mart or Gander Mountain.
Since there is enough of a problem with that now and they can't catch all the poachers.
Mike,
we have poachers here too, unfortunately. However, as I said most serious bunny-bashing and fox control is done at night in the UK using lamps. In the case of foxes, serious controllers are increasingly using night-vision scopes too, despite their high prices.
The reason for the police being willing to provide the authority to use sound moderators is linked to night-time shooting. In our crowded little island, it's hard to get away from houses even in the countryside. A .22-250 or .243 makes an almighty row that upsets people and has then calling the police if heard after dark. Most police forces are so thinly spread in country areas, they are very reluctant to send an officer out on a wild goose chase that may take half his shift by the time he drives 30 or 40 miles and finds the householder or farmer who made the 999 call, then tries to look over 10 square miles of pitch black fields for the 'culprit'.
Although deerstalking can only be carried out legally in daylight, much of it is done very early or late around sunrise and sunset, and the same issues about not upsetting residents and dog-walkers etc increasingly apply, so smaller calibre deer rifles up to .308W are increasingly being fitted with moderators. It's reaching the stage where it's difficult to sell a .243 sporter that hasn't had its muzzle screwcut. As there is no market on your side of the Atlantic, Remingtons, Savages etc are modified by the importer here after receipt and before going to the proof-house for the mandatory over-pressure test and proof certification.
The Police also happily supply authority for firing-range only shooters on the basis of that modern Holy Grail 'Elf & Safetee'. Just quote H&S and most police forces cough up the required Firearms Certificate 'variation' to get a moderator without demur.
They are also widely used by a couple of groups of our few remaining pistol users - racecourse owners and vetinary surgeons - for humane despatch of animals. All racecourses must have a pistol and it must be moderated to put any injured horse down quickly and without upsetting other beasts, or for that matter the human punters. Vet practices normally have a small pistol too - .32ACP or S&W Long are very popular - to put down aggressive large animals that cannot be transported away. Such is the British townie based population's aversion to killing any animal for any reason - fed by TV programmes like 'Animal Hospital' that vets are acutely conscious of the need to avoid anybody realising what they are doing, hence the small calibres and sound moderators.
Yes, our police and politicians used to be obsessed with 'silenced' firearms too - tools of assassins and criminals. However, sense has largely prevailed and it's realised that not too many assassins apply for firearms certificates. The pros for the authorities now far outweigh the cons - unless or until somebody uses a moderated rifle in a crime and the 'red-top' newspapers run a campaign against 'assassins' weapons'! .22 rimfire rifles have been routinely moderated here for as long as I've had an interest in shooting - nearly 50 years now, as rimfires used in rabbit control were accepted as a 'good reason' for moderators long before centrefire rifles were. Yet, I've never read of a crime involving a .22 where the moderator in itself was an issue. Domestic shootings on farms and the odd murder as when a young man shot his adopted farmer parents and thye rest of the family for financial gain and claiming it was an intruder. The rifle was silenced which probably helped a bit as he shot the others as they slept, but it wasn't seen in court or in the newspapers as being an essential part of the plot
Laurie
we have poachers here too, unfortunately. However, as I said most serious bunny-bashing and fox control is done at night in the UK using lamps. In the case of foxes, serious controllers are increasingly using night-vision scopes too, despite their high prices.
The reason for the police being willing to provide the authority to use sound moderators is linked to night-time shooting. In our crowded little island, it's hard to get away from houses even in the countryside. A .22-250 or .243 makes an almighty row that upsets people and has then calling the police if heard after dark. Most police forces are so thinly spread in country areas, they are very reluctant to send an officer out on a wild goose chase that may take half his shift by the time he drives 30 or 40 miles and finds the householder or farmer who made the 999 call, then tries to look over 10 square miles of pitch black fields for the 'culprit'.
Although deerstalking can only be carried out legally in daylight, much of it is done very early or late around sunrise and sunset, and the same issues about not upsetting residents and dog-walkers etc increasingly apply, so smaller calibre deer rifles up to .308W are increasingly being fitted with moderators. It's reaching the stage where it's difficult to sell a .243 sporter that hasn't had its muzzle screwcut. As there is no market on your side of the Atlantic, Remingtons, Savages etc are modified by the importer here after receipt and before going to the proof-house for the mandatory over-pressure test and proof certification.
The Police also happily supply authority for firing-range only shooters on the basis of that modern Holy Grail 'Elf & Safetee'. Just quote H&S and most police forces cough up the required Firearms Certificate 'variation' to get a moderator without demur.
They are also widely used by a couple of groups of our few remaining pistol users - racecourse owners and vetinary surgeons - for humane despatch of animals. All racecourses must have a pistol and it must be moderated to put any injured horse down quickly and without upsetting other beasts, or for that matter the human punters. Vet practices normally have a small pistol too - .32ACP or S&W Long are very popular - to put down aggressive large animals that cannot be transported away. Such is the British townie based population's aversion to killing any animal for any reason - fed by TV programmes like 'Animal Hospital' that vets are acutely conscious of the need to avoid anybody realising what they are doing, hence the small calibres and sound moderators.
Yes, our police and politicians used to be obsessed with 'silenced' firearms too - tools of assassins and criminals. However, sense has largely prevailed and it's realised that not too many assassins apply for firearms certificates. The pros for the authorities now far outweigh the cons - unless or until somebody uses a moderated rifle in a crime and the 'red-top' newspapers run a campaign against 'assassins' weapons'! .22 rimfire rifles have been routinely moderated here for as long as I've had an interest in shooting - nearly 50 years now, as rimfires used in rabbit control were accepted as a 'good reason' for moderators long before centrefire rifles were. Yet, I've never read of a crime involving a .22 where the moderator in itself was an issue. Domestic shootings on farms and the odd murder as when a young man shot his adopted farmer parents and thye rest of the family for financial gain and claiming it was an intruder. The rifle was silenced which probably helped a bit as he shot the others as they slept, but it wasn't seen in court or in the newspapers as being an essential part of the plot
Laurie
I was talking to a guy just this week that has one of the barret 50 cals. He was telling me that if you shoot more than 20 rnds in a day, that for the next 12hr or so you basicly would have the worst hang over that you could imagine. I know that there is a huge difference in the 50 cal than the 308, but if you were shooting a break and the guy on your left and right were shooting a brake it would be my guess that you could suffer some of the same problems that the guy I was speaking to spoke of. The frist rifle I had with a break was a 257 Web. Sighted the scope in and obviously noticed how loud it was, but then when I was hunting and shot a deer with no ear plugs or muffs. I took the brake off when hunting and only used the brake when checking the zero for the next season. I think my ears were ringing still 3 days later! I can see how it would be a huge problem shooting comp.
I often shoot on a little 300yd wooded range in a steep valley that is very sheltered. It only has three target frames and six shooters on the firing points are 'pretty cosy'. Muzzle brakes have become pretty common as many members shoot sporting rifles so equipped, especially in 7mm Rem Magnum. After various problems and complaints, a rule was instituted that only one brake-equipped rifle can be shot in a relay and the shooter must position himself on the very right end of the firing point which puts him against the trees. This also allows the other five to move as far away as possible to the left. In fact, we often try and keep the muzzle-brake shooters back to the last relay at each range shot over so there is less likely to be a full complement of six.
Most users, being reasonable people and knowing their toys are unpopular, either unscrew them for range use, or ask permission for just a few shots to ensure the zero is OK with it attached, with apologies all round! They really are anti-social bits of kit.
memilanuk
Gold $$ Contributor
One of the things to remember about brakes... some designs have a nasty tendency to throw stuff back at the shooter next to you. Most folks don't much like getting buffeted by the muzzle blast, much less getting peppered by gravel and coated with dust. Not every firing line is paved or grass. Then think about the front lens of your new $2000 scope getting that same stuff thrown at it... and people using brakes close to the ground and immediately to the side of you starts seeming less and less like a good idea. Arguments can be made for allowing brakes, but restricting the designs, or requiring users to provide blast mats, shields, etc. to protect their neighbors... all of which probably sound like fine ideas until you take it upon yourself to volunteer and actually try running matches and see it as yet another thing to have to police on the line - suddenly the virtue of 'just saying no' becomes clearer. 
The suppressor thing stems from the fact that they make a very functional *brake*, and in my experience thats the driving reason most people want to use them despite what they may say otherwise. US NRA rules don't allow brakes for the reasons described above, nor devices that provide the same benefit as a brake i.e. suppressor.
The suppressor thing stems from the fact that they make a very functional *brake*, and in my experience thats the driving reason most people want to use them despite what they may say otherwise. US NRA rules don't allow brakes for the reasons described above, nor devices that provide the same benefit as a brake i.e. suppressor.
Monte,
as well as completely agreeing with your views on these things, your post reminded me of one of my own past rifles that I'd completely forgotten about. After Marlin brought out its .44 Magnum M1894P short-barrelled ported levergun at a time when holes drilled all over the place next to the muzzle was in fashion, the UK importer took a fair number, then found there were precious few takers. I didn't want a short-barrel 1894, but a friendly dealer made such a good offer on a new example with nice timber and finish that I couldn't refuse it.
I never used it with full-house magnum loads, restricting it to 240gn cast lead bullets at 950-1,100 fps with fast powders, making it a nice accurate (by levergun standards, anyway) little rifle on a local 50M range with a covered firing point. Neighbouring shooters soon started jumping around like they'd been stung - and I became mighty unpopular when it was discovered it was bits of fouling and bullet lube (lead shavings too?) from my shortie Marlin that was the culprit spitting out sideways! Other shooters took to hanging bits of old carpet off the firing point roof supports between me and them and it took me ages to live this down.
In practice, after I discovered this trait of the little beast, I would always take another more sociable rifle to this range alongside the Marlin and use that instead if I had company, keeping the 1894P to when I had the range to myself, or maybe only sharing it with one other shooter or two down the other end of the point!
Laurie
Monte is on que with the NRA's ban on moderators. I argued about this a few years back, but some of the AMU guys and at least one of the NRA's HP council had basiclly decided that the recoil reduction was unfair and violated the spirit of the muzzle brake rule, as well as them not being available nationwide.
The moderated rifles that shoot on our range are no more accurate. Actually, they seem to be less accurate (over the course of a two or three match day) then a standard barrel. I concede that they do reduce recoil, but I have not seen them add to the rifles accuracy, so I call this a wash. I still allow moderators for club matches, but I follow the rules to a T for approved and registered matches.
The rational behind banning them due to availability is pure BS. You can't buy an optioned Ar15 in California or some of the larger couties in NY or Ill., so why not make everyone shoot '03's at highpower matches? If we spec'd equipment off of what everyone has available to them, the NRA would have to completely stop all pistol matches.
I guess I'm still a bit sore on this subject, but in the grand scheme of things banning moderators hasn't seemed to hurt attendance. The price of components, and the general state of the economy is what's hurting us.
The moderated rifles that shoot on our range are no more accurate. Actually, they seem to be less accurate (over the course of a two or three match day) then a standard barrel. I concede that they do reduce recoil, but I have not seen them add to the rifles accuracy, so I call this a wash. I still allow moderators for club matches, but I follow the rules to a T for approved and registered matches.
The rational behind banning them due to availability is pure BS. You can't buy an optioned Ar15 in California or some of the larger couties in NY or Ill., so why not make everyone shoot '03's at highpower matches? If we spec'd equipment off of what everyone has available to them, the NRA would have to completely stop all pistol matches.
I guess I'm still a bit sore on this subject, but in the grand scheme of things banning moderators hasn't seemed to hurt attendance. The price of components, and the general state of the economy is what's hurting us.
I realize this thread is about F Class, but all these stories about headaches, horrific blast, etc etc are a little dramatized. I shoot NBRSA Long Range and just about every rifle has a muzzle brake. Nobody has gone home with a headache nor had their coffee blown off the bench. It's all in the brake's design. NBRSA rules do not allow brakes that vent to the rear. Our benches can be as close together as any other discipline. We wear both plugs and muffs.
I believe that most shooters have never used a brake, many have never been next to one being fired. Most stories are directly from Internet shooters. They are not for every discipline but they do have their place.
JMHO
Ray
I believe that most shooters have never used a brake, many have never been next to one being fired. Most stories are directly from Internet shooters. They are not for every discipline but they do have their place.
JMHO
Ray
Well Mr Cheechako, I didn't watch that coffee cup (almost 2 quart one by the way) blown off the table online, I was there. Near it, sort of, but not as close as I'd have been forced to be if it been an NRA match. If you included my post with the "internet shooters" statement then you were mistaken in this case.
Yes I did try that 308 with the brake and it was very effective. That was why I was smart enough not to get too close to it as far as sideways/rear was concerned. This brake would be a problem for F-Class, which this discussion IS about. Remember F-Class is prone so the rifles are very close to the ground, which may have loose dirt, rocks, etc that could be blown around by such a brake. Your NBRSA events are on benches, which means they are not as close to the ground. You also state that brakes in that discipline may not vent to the rear. Are you therefore saying that the only noticeable effect to the other shooters from such a brake is the increased noise? No gas directed in their general direction?
Yes I did try that 308 with the brake and it was very effective. That was why I was smart enough not to get too close to it as far as sideways/rear was concerned. This brake would be a problem for F-Class, which this discussion IS about. Remember F-Class is prone so the rifles are very close to the ground, which may have loose dirt, rocks, etc that could be blown around by such a brake. Your NBRSA events are on benches, which means they are not as close to the ground. You also state that brakes in that discipline may not vent to the rear. Are you therefore saying that the only noticeable effect to the other shooters from such a brake is the increased noise? No gas directed in their general direction?
I thought that I made it clear that I wasn't taking issue with F Class or any discipline using or not using brakes. My primary point was that the scary stories about brakes are often very exaggerated by shooters who have never used one or may have only shot one on the Internet. You obviously are not one of the Internet shooters and I can assure you that my comment was not directed at you.
In NBRSA Long Range, the brake has to be designed so as not to vent any gas to the rear. It's the rule. Even the noise is a non factor because we all wear muffs and/or plugs and muffs. When you're shooting, your concentration had better be on the flags and if it is you do not even hear the noise.
And you don't have to call me mister. You can call me - Ray 
;D
In NBRSA Long Range, the brake has to be designed so as not to vent any gas to the rear. It's the rule. Even the noise is a non factor because we all wear muffs and/or plugs and muffs. When you're shooting, your concentration had better be on the flags and if it is you do not even hear the noise.
And you don't have to call me mister. You can call me - Ray
;Dholstil
Silver $$ Contributor
FWIW, I was on the Vias site today and they refer you to a thread in which a man tested the Vias design and claim of not being any louder to shooter or observer.
The referred thread was an interesting read in and of itself.
I suppose he quantified the claim.
At any rate, what about forward blow types. If not for competition, then at least for practice. I would think just 10 or 15 degrees would do the trick.
Ray, I understand what your saying. I shoot IBS and although I detest to look to my right (or left) and see 338 or even a 300 win. sporting a brake, I don't even notice during record string.
However, throw a little dirt in ones face shooting f-class and we may have a serious contact sport.
I've been wanting to have a go at f-class but don't really feel a need to strap on some gloves.
Jim
The referred thread was an interesting read in and of itself.
I suppose he quantified the claim.
At any rate, what about forward blow types. If not for competition, then at least for practice. I would think just 10 or 15 degrees would do the trick.
Ray, I understand what your saying. I shoot IBS and although I detest to look to my right (or left) and see 338 or even a 300 win. sporting a brake, I don't even notice during record string.
However, throw a little dirt in ones face shooting f-class and we may have a serious contact sport.
I've been wanting to have a go at f-class but don't really feel a need to strap on some gloves.
Jim
Just guessing here but availability can be spotty with cost being an issue. But couldn't the major issue be that the sponsoring club may face some liability (real or imagined) if someone is caught with an illegal silencer on the line at a match? Maybe this issue needs to be settled in court before the NRA will allow silencers on the line in NRA sanctioned matches. Opinions?
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